Question about super tweeters

Whatmore

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Jun 2, 2011
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A number of people I know have been 'converted' to super tweeters. Some of these people swear by them even though they only play red book cd.

I'm wondering whether there is a logical reason why this may be the case. I was always under the impression that redbook did not produce frequencies above 20kHz. In which case a super tweeter ought not make any difference at all.
 

JackD201

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I have supertweeters and actually distribute a brand of them. I can definitely say that there is a difference in the sound but that whether it is an improvement or not depends on the speakers used. They did not work well at all for example with VR-5 SEs but worked very well with DB-99s and Quad ESLs. What I am not sure about is what makes up this difference and what percentage of it is due to the very high frequencies being projected or the fact that being wired in series, the amplifiers see a different load. It's most likely a combination of both. How much is to be attributed? I really don't know.

I most recently tried them with Unifield 1 bookshelves. While I felt that there was an increase in bass definition (hence my theory about it raising the loudspeaker impedance) I felt that the upper mids became "hard". The top end definitely improved. In the end I felt more was lost than gained so I took them out.
 

Whatmore

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Jun 2, 2011
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I guess my question is more around what high frequency sounds are there to be projected if the source (redbook) does not contain them in the first place.

The reasoning around the amp seeing a different load makes intuitive sense though, thanks!
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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Redbook only records up to ~22 kHz, but there can be much higher-frequency content in the DAC's output. Whether your DAC does, and whether that matters either way, is a matter of some debate (and has been for many decades).

A DAC outputs a step that can be very wideband; it's up to the designer what sort of filter is on the output.

The other major factor to consider is that not all source material is redbook CD; there are wider bandwidth sources available.
 

Kal Rubinson

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May 4, 2010
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I have supertweeters and actually distribute a brand of them. I can definitely say that there is a difference in the sound but that whether it is an improvement or not depends on the speakers used. They did not work well at all for example with VR-5 SEs but worked very well with DB-99s and Quad ESLs. What I am not sure about is what makes up this difference and what percentage of it is due to the very high frequencies being projected or the fact that being wired in series, the amplifiers see a different load. It's most likely a combination of both. How much is to be attributed? I really don't know.
I am skeptical about them and suspect that their most apparent effect is due to intermodulation.
 

JackD201

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I hadn't thought of that before Kal. Cool. :)
 
A more fundamental problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to make high frequency sound as the wavelength becomes shorter and shorter. There are ultrasonic transducers that operate even into the Mhz range, but all are highly resonant (tuned) devices, not broad band like a loudspeaker.

In one sense tweeters can go down to 1Hz or DC, or up to 30-50Khz or higher, the fly in the ointment is they may also be -20 to -80dB or more down in level relative to say 10KHz (-60dB = 1/1000000 the power).

Also If one investigates “perceptual masking”, one finds that a louder lower tone can totally hide or make inaudible a higher lower level tone*.
Having the high tone so far down in level from both the ears response AND the drivers output makes this ultrasonic stuff undetectable normally.
*this is why raw THD measurements don’t correlate that well to what we hear, we are much more sensitive to high order and (with music) odd harmonics while a second of harmonic of 30- 50% may not be detectable at all with music being masked by the fundamental. Google / investigate “perceptual masking”.

Considering the shape of the equal loudness curve, means that if one hears anything at say 50Khz, it HAS to be VERY loud in order to be detectable at all against a silent background. Also, as correctly pointed out, the content of what is possible to record and play has a severe high frequency limit as well as the microphone end and speaker end of things.

What many maybe most have not done is sat down with an oscillator and honestly checked to see what frequency sounds like what sound starting at say 1Khz going up.

Most people I have been with, greatly over estimate both how high and how low various tones are, relative to the actual frequency.
This is instructive but be sure t start at around 1-4KHz at a low level as hifi tweeters can be burned out at an astonishingly low power sine wave.
Limit the drive Voltage to say 1V to be safe.

So far as causing intermodulation or other audible effects, that is a possibility.

The famous Apex aural exciter used a diode clipper and then the hf component from that clipper was added back into the direct signal to cause the desired effect.

Also, if one Google’s the “McGurke Effect” (a good one) and watches the video, it demonstrates the VERY strong connection between what we know and what our brain (as opposed to ears) hears. The only time you “hear” what is going into your ears correctly, is when you can’t see the stimulus and so removing the dominating prior knowledge.

The knowledge of just adding an X,Y or Z and having made an investment in time and or money, makes it very likely you will hear the difference, even if nothing of an electro-acoustic nature changed (and possibly nothing about the sound reaching your ears is different).

People think the expectation bias is about what you want, it can be, but our entire interpretation of reality, is based entirely on what we already know. Using that library and learned filtering, we weave a sensible picture out of the new things we encounter.

In “in the ear” measurement of a persons ears reveals comb filtering and a myriad of goofy looking things ALL of which would be show stopper flaws if you were making a loudspeaker, huge differences is the way things look depending on the right an left and up and down angles.

These for us are not flaws at all, we aren’t even aware of them as they are the ONLY thing we know AND it is those very things that through our lives we have learned , programmed into our automatic system and now, instead of hearing those flaws, THEY are what allow us to hear where and how high the source is, those things plus the two spatial vantage points allow our hearing center to make one acoustic image in 3d for us.
While room effects can mimic these things in measurements and can sound like a “real sounding” addition, they are not part of the recorded image and can’t be turned off.

The last problem one might face (not having a signal source with ultrasonic content) is the hf air absorption. For a 100Khz sound on a warm humid day, there is about 13dB of attenuation in the first 10 feet of travel though the air.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm
Best,
Tom Danley
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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A more fundamental problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to make high frequency sound as the wavelength becomes shorter and shorter. There are ultrasonic transducers that operate even into the Mhz range, but all are highly resonant (tuned) devices, not broad band like a loudspeaker.

In one sense tweeters can go down to 1Hz or DC, or up to 30-50Khz or higher, the fly in the ointment is they may also be -20 to -80dB or more down in level relative to say 10KHz (-60dB = 1/1000000 the power).

Also If one investigates “perceptual masking”, one finds that a louder lower tone can totally hide or make inaudible a higher lower level tone*.
Having the high tone so far down in level from both the ears response AND the drivers output makes this ultrasonic stuff undetectable normally.
*this is why raw THD measurements don’t correlate that well to what we hear, we are much more sensitive to high order and (with music) odd harmonics while a second of harmonic of 30- 50% may not be detectable at all with music being masked by the fundamental. Google / investigate “perceptual masking”.

Considering the shape of the equal loudness curve, means that if one hears anything at say 50Khz, it HAS to be VERY loud in order to be detectable at all against a silent background. Also, as correctly pointed out, the content of what is possible to record and play has a severe high frequency limit as well as the microphone end and speaker end of things.

What many maybe most have not done is sat down with an oscillator and honestly checked to see what frequency sounds like what sound starting at say 1Khz going up.

Most people I have been with, greatly over estimate both how high and how low various tones are, relative to the actual frequency.
This is instructive but be sure t start at around 1-4KHz at a low level as hifi tweeters can be burned out at an astonishingly low power sine wave.
Limit the drive Voltage to say 1V to be safe.

So far as causing intermodulation or other audible effects, that is a possibility.

The famous Apex aural exciter used a diode clipper and then the hf component from that clipper was added back into the direct signal to cause the desired effect.

Also, if one Google’s the “McGurke Effect” (a good one) and watches the video, it demonstrates the VERY strong connection between what we know and what our brain (as opposed to ears) hears. The only time you “hear” what is going into your ears correctly, is when you can’t see the stimulus and so removing the dominating prior knowledge.

The knowledge of just adding an X,Y or Z and having made an investment in time and or money, makes it very likely you will hear the difference, even if nothing of an electro-acoustic nature changed (and possibly nothing about the sound reaching your ears is different).

People think the expectation bias is about what you want, it can be, but our entire interpretation of reality, is based entirely on what we already know. Using that library and learned filtering, we weave a sensible picture out of the new things we encounter.

In “in the ear” measurement of a persons ears reveals comb filtering and a myriad of goofy looking things ALL of which would be show stopper flaws if you were making a loudspeaker, huge differences is the way things look depending on the right an left and up and down angles.

These for us are not flaws at all, we aren’t even aware of them as they are the ONLY thing we know AND it is those very things that through our lives we have learned , programmed into our automatic system and now, instead of hearing those flaws, THEY are what allow us to hear where and how high the source is, those things plus the two spatial vantage points allow our hearing center to make one acoustic image in 3d for us.
While room effects can mimic these things in measurements and can sound like a “real sounding” addition, they are not part of the recorded image and can’t be turned off.

The last problem one might face (not having a signal source with ultrasonic content) is the hf air absorption. For a 100Khz sound on a warm humid day, there is about 13dB of attenuation in the first 10 feet of travel though the air.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm
Best,
Tom Danley

Tom

SUPERB as usual .... Your posts have a modesty that only immense knowledge can impart ... Post more ... It iwll help all of us
 

Robh3606

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2010
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Destiny
A number of people I know have been 'converted' to super tweeters. Some of these people swear by them even though they only play red book cd.

Just out of curiosity where do they cut in?? I have supper tweeters in my Array horns that cut in at about 8KHz or so and go out to 40KHz. They happen to be the best sounding tweeters I have ever heard. I am not sure if it's being crossed over low for a supper tweeter so you can really hear them or the added extension or possibly both.

I was never a believer until I got a pair home and had a listen. They sound better than anything else I have at home.

Rob:)
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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The ones I have cut in at 10kHz. Not too sure about the slope. It's in the manual, chart and all but I haven't looked at it recently.
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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From an article by Jim Lesurf

However it looks as if supertweeters may be audible, even for listeners who can’t hear anything about 20 kHz, or when listening to musical signals that contain no energy above 20 kHz. This may explain why people say they can hear the effect of supertweeters, even using CD music sources which should have no components about 22 kHz.
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/supertweet/coherence.html
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
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NSW Australia
People think the expectation bias is about what you want, it can be, but our entire interpretation of reality, is based entirely on what we already know. Using that library and learned filtering, we weave a sensible picture out of the new things we encounter.

In “in the ear” measurement of a persons ears reveals comb filtering and a myriad of goofy looking things ALL of which would be show stopper flaws if you were making a loudspeaker, huge differences is the way things look depending on the right an left and up and down angles.

These for us are not flaws at all, we aren’t even aware of them as they are the ONLY thing we know AND it is those very things that through our lives we have learned , programmed into our automatic system and now, instead of hearing those flaws, THEY are what allow us to hear where and how high the source is, those things plus the two spatial vantage points allow our hearing center to make one acoustic image in 3d for us.
While room effects can mimic these things in measurements and can sound like a “real sounding” addition, they are not part of the recorded image and can’t be turned off.
I echo Frantz's appreciation, especially on the above points.

Frank
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Like a sub-woofer a super-tweeter can be beneficial by relieving the main tweeter of super duty.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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They certainly don't require as much power as often but they can and do need a lot of juice too. :)
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Does it matter? :) Just kidding :)

My guess is at the higher regions, 10 to 15 perhaps? As Tom says, the higher you go the faster the air absorbs them. Jadis (our fellow member, not the French manufacturer) has some torture wattage sucking tracks (Operas) where the sopranos can suck amps dry. :)
 

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