How much does an amp contribute to 3D imaging?

Rshatzer

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Jan 21, 2012
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My system has evolved quite a lot over the years and i'm happy with it. It's exceedingly musical and free of fatigue. The imaging is very good , but it lacks the holographic 3D images which i've witnessed on another system. How much does the type or quality of am amplifier contribute towards that end? Are tubed amps inherently better at 3D imaging? Any feedback will be appreciated. Thanks!
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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My system has evolved quite a lot over the years and i'm happy with it. It's exceedingly musical and free of fatigue. The imaging is very good , but it lacks the holographic 3D images which i've witnessed on another system. How much does the type or quality of am amplifier contribute towards that end? Are tubed amps inherently better at 3D imaging? Any feedback will be appreciated. Thanks!

Solid-state has gotten much better but still isn't to my ears the equal of tubes when it comes to reproducing the dimensionality of instruments and singers. (we're of course comparing apples with apples here!) That said, I find that the three dimensional character of solid-state gear is even more dependent upon AC line quality than tubes. I'll leave it to others to explain that :)
 

Rshatzer

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Thanks for the info Myles. Tubed units, i've heard at length, but never in my system. Improving my AC line quality interests me too, but i'm on a budget ATM. I've been considering a tube amp for sometime. The Rogue's can be had at my budget of 2K. Prima Luna's integrated amps i've considered as well and recently the Monarchy SS 100 watt mono blocks. Whether or not any or all of these would be an improvement I know not.
 

fas42

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Welcome to the forum, Rshatzer. And a good question to kick off with ...

IMO, the quality of the amplifier is crucial. As well as everything else in the system, as to how well it's set up, and how well it's protected from outside electrical interference, and how well each component doesn't disturb another. Audio systems are a house of cards, if one thing is not quite right then those "holographic 3D images" will instantly vanish. Giving answers like using a certain type of amplifier, or ensuring a particular power capability is about as useful as throwing darts with a blindfold on.

But apart from that, using over the top components, with massive reserves of power, speakers vastly more capable than are needed, is one of the shortcuts to getting the really good sound. If you can afford to go that way, it may do the job.

Frank
 

MylesBAstor

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Thanks for the info Myles. Tubed units, i've heard at length, but never in my system. Improving my AC line quality interests me too, but i'm on a budget ATM. I've been considering a tube amp for sometime. The Rogue's can be had at my budget of 2K. Prima Luna's integrated amps i've considered as well and recently the Monarchy SS 100 watt mono blocks. Whether or not any or all of these would be an improvement I know not.

Maybe look for a little older, non Class D Rowland amp?
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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HI

It should not come as a surprise that I do not share Myles Point of view about SS vs Tubes :). Both can do a a terrific job in term of 3-D sonic landscape. Speakers and Room treatment (assumng speaker positioning to be optimal and dealt with) are the main contributors of this effect. I am a almost an evangelist about Power Quality and it helps in all perfromance aspects... It is important to be sure but the characteristics of your speakers dominate the reproduction of a soundstage IMHO.
What speakers do you use?
 

Rshatzer

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You've given me much to think upon fas42. I can't afford to go the over the top way. If anything, i'd like to improve one component a year. Last year I tried some grounding devices from Audio Sensibilities which lowered the noise floor and improved imaging , as well as increased resolution. The cumulative effect of having them on my speakers, preamp and sources has made me consider upgrading the amp and or preamp.
 

fas42

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Last year I tried some grounding devices from Audio Sensibilities which lowered the noise floor and improved imaging , as well as increased resolution. The cumulative effect of having them on my speakers, preamp and sources has made me consider upgrading the amp and or preamp.
Just had a quick look at your profile: your components are plenty good enough to get the job done, of getting absolutely top notch sound. Not familiar with your amplifier, but a quick perusal shows that it should have all the grunt to make it happen: a key factor is how well the power supply in it is sorted out.

As a quick indication of its capabilities, how well does the sound hold together as you increase the volume to realistic levels? In particular, if you have a key recording where there is delicate high frequency information on it -- well recorded crash cymbals is excellent for this -- how far can you increase the sound level before the quality of this type of musical detail starts to sound "wrong": congeal, compress, go flat, whatever words you would like to use for sound that doesn't "cut it"?

Frank
 

Rshatzer

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Just had a quick look at your profile: your components are plenty good enough to get the job done, of getting absolutely top notch sound. Not familiar with your amplifier, but a quick perusal shows that it should have all the grunt to make it happen: a key factor is how well the power supply in it is sorted out.

As a quick indication of its capabilities, how well does the sound hold together as you increase the volume to realistic levels? In particular, if you have a key recording where there is delicate high frequency information on it -- well recorded crash cymbals is excellent for this -- how far can you increase the sound level before the quality of this type of musical detail starts to sound "wrong": congeal, compress, go flat, whatever words you would like to use for sound that doesn't "cut it"?

Frank

I'm familiar with the "wrong" sound with which you describe.... had it with a previous system. Maybe I haven't pushed it hard enough, but i've yet to hear this "wrong" sound with my current setup. BTW, my speakers are at least 2 feet from sidewalls and 6 feet from the rear wall. The equipment rack is between speakers and slightly behind the front of them. I sit about 9 - 10 feet from speakers which are 8 and a half feet apart (if memory serves me correctly).
 

Bruce B

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3-D imaging has more to do with the differences between L/R. To get better imaging, you need to look at your room and speaker positioning first. Have the room as symmetrical as possible. I feel you also get better imaging by using monoblocs. But changing the amp is not a panacea for imaging.
 

fas42

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I'm familiar with the "wrong" sound with which you describe.... had it with a previous system. Maybe I haven't pushed it hard enough, but i've yet to hear this "wrong" sound with my current setup. BTW, my speakers are at least 2 feet from sidewalls and 6 feet from the rear wall. The equipment rack is between speakers and slightly behind the front of them. I sit about 9 - 10 feet from speakers which are 8 and a half feet apart (if memory serves me correctly).
Good answer: amp's in good shape!

As a next step, how well does the system handle "bad" or difficult recordings? A good example is late 80's pop, new wave, which typically have huge acoustics encoded in a very busy mix: does all this get separated out cleanly, everything clear, musical, and making sense; or is it a dog's breakfast?

Frank
 

MylesBAstor

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3-D imaging has more to do with the differences between L/R. To get better imaging, you need to look at your room and speaker positioning first. Have the room as symmetrical as possible. I feel you also get better imaging by using monoblocs. But changing the amp is not a panacea for imaging.

I was trying to restrict it to the question at hand :) If you want to get technical, it's also going to greatly depend upon the miking technique chosen by the recording engineer :)
 

treitz3

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From what I have experienced, substantial to seemingly no difference with regards to the sound stage. I am definitely a subscriber to the philosophy that everything affects everything and in the case of an amplifier, there is no exception.

What I have found to be true with regards to an SS amplifier is not only the design but the most significant improvement with the imaging came when I hit the realm of a class A amplifier. You would have to experience this in your own rig to hear this first hand. The difference can be substantial and more than welcome. With regards to tubes, once again design [and build] qualities have a major differences that can affect the end result and the best that I have read about but admittedly not experienced yet is a SET tube amp. In other words a single ended triode amplifier.

Welcome to the forum and enjoy the music!
 
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Rshatzer

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Jan 21, 2012
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Good answer: amp's in good shape!

As a next step, how well does the system handle "bad" or difficult recordings? A good example is late 80's pop, new wave, which typically have huge acoustics encoded in a very busy mix: does all this get separated out cleanly, everything clear, musical, and making sense; or is it a dog's breakfast?

Frank

Difficult and or bad recordings sound fine to me. I have a reissue from the early 80's of Ronnie Wood and Ronnie Lane's" Mahoney's Last Stand" which may be the worst CD I own. Great music, but it just sounds hardish. I do get some incredible 3D imaging, but not with the frequency I think I should get. When listening to The Police, the drum kit is incredible! Sometimes Stewart Copeland's kit seems larger than life. The typical audiophile records have a fair share of 3D imaging, but even then, I often feel it could be improved. Electronica provides incredible imaging effects also. Often times, imaging far from outside of speakers and percussion sounding so deep it seems to come from behind rear wall. Acoustic bass is often incredible, but again I think what I see could get better. Using my friend's Spectral system as my reference for 3D imaging, as listening to really great gear is few and far between in my area. With his setup, vocalists have an eerie presence. It often feels as if i'm behind the glass in the studio watching and listening to the vocalists.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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My system has evolved quite a lot over the years and i'm happy with it. It's exceedingly musical and free of fatigue. The imaging is very good , but it lacks the holographic 3D images which i've witnessed on another system. How much does the type or quality of am amplifier contribute towards that end? Are tubed amps inherently better at 3D imaging? Any feedback will be appreciated. Thanks!

Interesting question Rshatzer. I do believe that the amp will have a significant influence in the area of imaging and general dimensionality. Which is why I own both a ss amp and a tube amp. The tube amp brings a different presentation to my system...more portrayal of depth and slightly better portrayal of air...The ss amp delivers far better grip of the speakers and therefore a much more relaxed impression with a wider stage and with slightly more extension on the bottom end. Which is better...depends on the music and what I am looking for that particular listening session. One does have to take into consideration the preamp as well, because this is where the system lives or dies, IMHO:D.
 

Rshatzer

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Jan 21, 2012
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From what I have experienced, little to no difference. I am definitely a subscriber to the philosophy that everything affects everything and in the case of an amplifier, there is no exception.

What I have found to be true with regards to an SS amplifier is not only the design but the most significant improvement with the imaging came when I hit the realm of a class A amplifier. You would have to experience this in your own rig to hear this first hand. The difference can be substantial and more than welcome. With regards to tubes, once again design [and build] qualities have a major differences that can affect the end result and the best that I have read about but admittedly not experienced yet is a SET tube amp. In other words a single ended triode amplifier.

Welcome to the forum and enjoy the music!

A class A amplifier would have to be an improvement, at least i'd think so. Was considering the Monarchy amps, which I believe are Class A for the first 30 watts. Obviously, i'm far less experienced and exposed to gear than many of you.

Thanks for the kind words! This forum has much to offer and seems friendly thus far.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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iMO, the recording is on first for creating the image. So the fist thing I'd want is to make sure you're comparing apples and apples (the same recording) with that 3D system you heard. next woud the speakers, placement and room. Electronics would be the least influential, though sometimes they do need to get out of the way by providing sufficiently low noise and distortion, depth of dynamic range, and good enough channel separtion. A minor contributor, though, all told. If you're getting no depth from sufficiently amplified ushers, I'd look at the set-up and the room first. Got photos, by any chance?

Tim
 

fas42

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Difficult and or bad recordings sound fine to me. I have a reissue from the early 80's of Ronnie Wood and Ronnie Lane's" Mahoney's Last Stand" which may be the worst CD I own. Great music, but it just sounds hardish. I do get some incredible 3D imaging, but not with the frequency I think I should get. When listening to The Police, the drum kit is incredible! Sometimes Stewart Copeland's kit seems larger than life. The typical audiophile records have a fair share of 3D imaging, but even then, I often feel it could be improved. Electronica provides incredible imaging effects also. Often times, imaging far from outside of speakers and percussion sounding so deep it seems to come from behind rear wall. Acoustic bass is often incredible, but again I think what I see could get better. Using my friend's Spectral system as my reference for 3D imaging, as listening to really great gear is few and far between in my area. With his setup, vocalists have an eerie presence. It often feels as if i'm behind the glass in the studio watching and listening to the vocalists.
Again, looking very good. The key thing you mentioned is "hardish", that's what you have to work on in conquering. Going to class A may get you over the hurdle, but it's going to have to be a very good one, ie, big bucks.

How much have you explored the effect of electrical interference on your system? Mains power and current draw by other appliances is gawdawful stuff, and it certainly can do a lot of damage to sound quality, if not "fiddled" with. As an extreme test, that I do, have you tried switching off and pulling the plug on absolutely everything in the house that goes to the mains, yes, even the fridge and hot water system, etc; does this significantly improve the sound? As an extension to this, put the amp on a completely different circuit from the source devices, does this help?

Once you get to a certain level, these sort of things become very important, unless the audio components have been so well engineered that these aspects are irrelevant. And even when you go expensive, they are usually not: the Spectral you mentioned comes from a company which DOES take these things seriously ...

Frank
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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I was trying to restrict it to the question at hand :) If you want to get technical, it's also going to greatly depend upon the miking technique chosen by the recording engineer :)

The OP has no control over mic'ing/recording technique. He does have control over his room/speakers/amp though.
 

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