The pecking order

mep

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Last night I started off listening to my new music server as I had just downloaded a ‘new’ album by Bill Evans from HDtracks. The album is “New Conversations.” I thought it sounded very good and the album was definitely recorded to showcase the piano. Next I played an LP from RR which was the Dick Hyman “Swing” which some have reported as sounding ‘thin.’ Third up at bat was R2R playing Miles Davis “Kind of Blue” 15 ips 2 track.

There is no doubt that in my house, in my room, in my system that R2R is at the top of the pecking order with regards to having the highest fidelity. Once a good tape starts playing music, the muscles in your body voluntarily relax without you even thinking about it. It’s like your body is saying “Ahhh.” Some of you will get what I’m saying and some of you are taping up your boxing gloves and are getting ready to step in the ring with me. But, if you don’t have a decent table/arm/cartridge that is functional and a R2R deck capable of playing back 15 ips 2 track tapes, please take your gloves off and go sit down. And I only say that because if you don’t own all three source materials and components to play them back on and hear them on a regular basis, then you really don’t know what you really don’t know.

If you could imagine that your preamp, integrated amp, or whatever you listen through that has a volume knob on it had a knob to the left of the volume knob that says ‘realism,’ the realism knob on good R2R tapes is pegged at 10. The realism knob on both vinyl and digital doesn’t quite go that high. I personally think the realism knob goes higher most of the time for LP than it does for digital, but sometimes really good digital surpasses not so good vinyl. But, neither digital nor vinyl hits 10 on the ‘realism’ knob.

I would say really good examples of both are more around 8.5 on the scale of 10 and occasionally hits 9. Vinyl will normally be at least a full number higher on the ‘realism” knob than digital. In the spirit of full disclosure, if we had a noise meter on our preamp or integrated amp, the meter would always be at the lowest with digital. However, well made tapes playing at 15 ips 2 track are damn quiet. Certainly LPs would come in last on the noise meter scale. The good news is that once the music starts, the noise on good source material is way below the recorded music. The other good news is that I enjoy all 3 sources for the different things they bring to the table. If I could wave a magic wand over all of my source material and turn it into a single source, it would be tape. There is no doubt about that.
 

microstrip

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Mep,
You already knew that I agree, but only excessive exposition time to music servers can explain writing such an observation in this forum ... :)
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Where did you manage to get a 15 ips tape of Kind of Blue? Congratulations on that.

Tim
 

treitz3

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bblue

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In general, where are *any* of the 15 ips tapes coming from? Are there commercial services like HD Tracks but for tapes?

I don't personally consider them that high on the nirvana list, but they're good. But comparing them to really well recorded tracks with good, current studio gear (analog or digital) and mixed to 192k digital or 2 track 30 ips on 1/2" tape, they are miles away. For being high quality dubs of original sessions done in the 60-80's and mixed to tape, they're probably very good. Though a good 192k rendering playback on good digital gear will reveal numerous shortcomings.

Another thing to consider, is that with their limited bandwidth, 15 ips tapes are 'easier' to play on a lot of different systems. Systems that might have problems playing back source with fast rise-times and moderate to high distortion, will usually sound fine on tape sources.

I have a whole wall full of studio masters at 15 or 30ips 2 track 1/4", and while they do sound very good, they don't approach the quality available on well recorded tracks 'now'. Still, they're sure fun to listen to.

--Bill
 

MylesBAstor

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In general, where are *any* of the 15 ips tapes coming from? Are there commercial services like HD Tracks but for tapes?

I don't personally consider them that high on the nirvana list, but they're good. But comparing them to really well recorded tracks with good, current studio gear (analog or digital) and mixed to 192k digital or 2 track 30 ips on 1/2" tape, they are miles away. For being high quality dubs of original sessions done in the 60-80's and mixed to tape, they're probably very good. Though a good 192k rendering playback on good digital gear will reveal numerous shortcomings.

Another thing to consider, is that with their limited bandwidth, 15 ips tapes are 'easier' to play on a lot of different systems. Systems that might have problems playing back source with fast rise-times and moderate to high distortion, will usually sound fine on tape sources.

I have a whole wall full of studio masters at 15 or 30ips 2 track 1/4", and while they do sound very good, they don't approach the quality available on well recorded tracks 'now'. Still, they're sure fun to listen to.

--Bill

Well first of all, have you heard any of the tapes you referring to such as those from the Tape Project, Yarlung Records--or even as I have, the soon to be coming Opus 3? If not, you'd be advised to give them a listen first.

Two, you don't mention what decks/electronics you're using to playback your tapes or what your system is?

Third, as I've said before, even the best digital copies done at 384 K, do not come close to making a mirror image copy of a 15 ips tape. Not even close! You can hear the issues all over, but the deviations are most prominently heard in the upper octaves and imaging :(

Lastly, we'll just have to disagree about digital.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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In general, where are *any* of the 15 ips tapes coming from? Are there commercial services like HD Tracks but for tapes?

I don't personally consider them that high on the nirvana list, but they're good. But comparing them to really well recorded tracks with good, current studio gear (analog or digital) and mixed to 192k digital or 2 track 30 ips on 1/2" tape, they are miles away. For being high quality dubs of original sessions done in the 60-80's and mixed to tape, they're probably very good. Though a good 192k rendering playback on good digital gear will reveal numerous shortcomings.

Another thing to consider, is that with their limited bandwidth, 15 ips tapes are 'easier' to play on a lot of different systems. Systems that might have problems playing back source with fast rise-times and moderate to high distortion, will usually sound fine on tape sources.

I have a whole wall full of studio masters at 15 or 30ips 2 track 1/4", and while they do sound very good, they don't approach the quality available on well recorded tracks 'now'. Still, they're sure fun to listen to.

--Bill

I've owned and recorded 15ips tapes, and listened to them at every stage of development, but not for many years, and I've never had the opportunity to compare them directly to modern digital recordings, so I'll bow to your experience. I understand the technical limits of both formats very well, though, and can only attribute some audiophiles' belief in the superiority of r2r to preference.

Tim
 

rbbert

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...Third, as I've said before, even the best digital copies done at 384 K, do not come close to making a mirror image copy of a 15 ips tape. Not even close! You can hear the issues all over, but the deviations are most prominently heard in the upper octaves and imaging :(

Lastly, we'll just have to disagree about digital.

I'm sure Bill will respond himself in more detail, but suffice it to say he has some decades of experience with studio recording sound and techniques. Nor is he the only long-term recording engineer who prefers hi-res digital to analog (e.g., Barry Diament and Doug Sax)
 

MylesBAstor

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I'm sure Bill will respond himself in more detail, but suffice it to say he has some decades of experience with studio recording sound and techniques. Nor is he the only long-term recording engineer who prefers hi-res digital to analog (e.g., Barry Diament and Doug Sax)

And I can quote you just as many, if not more, engineers who have the exact opposite point of view. So what? And if Doug is so pro-digital, why's he back cutting LPs again? After he swore off vinyl a decade ago.

And sorry, I really don't take any engineers word for it. They've set the industry back decades. Digital is convenient, nothing else, both at the studio and playback end. Most engineers have not heard a good high-end system--ever! If they did, we wouldn't see the crap that is foisted on us today.

And the bottom line, I've been in both studio and high-end audio for 25+ years too. That gives me a little different perspective on things.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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And sorry, I really don't take any engineers word for it.

Yet you expect us to take yours. You recently said that no digital system at even the highest levels of resolution is capable of reproducing 15ips vinyl -- you have said this kind of thing many times before; always as a definitive statement of fact, without qualification, with no hint that it is just your opinion, with no acknowledgement that all of the objective evidence stands against your opinion. And if that opinion is questioned, your answer is always the same -- you haven't heard a good enough system.

It's a bad answer. A very weak answer. Even wild speculation regarding why hi res digital is clearly capable of capturing everything on a 15ips, 1/4" tape, including its distortions, yet mysteriously does not, would be a better answer; an answer that might actually leave open the possibility of further discussion. This answer -- your system must not be good enough to hear what I hear? Propriety keeps me from saying where that leaves the discussion.

Tim
 

microstrip

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Having pro's opinion is always interesting, but we should always remember that the consumer and professional have different requirements. From my favorite book on the subject of acoustics by F. Toole :


Providing a contrasting point of view, Newell and Holland (1997) present a reasoned discussion of the requirements for control-room acoustical treatment (and, by inference, loudspeaker directivity). They favor the elimination of all lateral and vertical reflections—a near anechoic space, placing listeners in a direct-sound field. They conclude that “spaciousness and the resolution of fine detail are largely mutually exclusive. Spaciousness should be an aspect of the final reproduction environment.” There is no doubt that, listening to direct sound only, recording engineers may recognize the callously stark spatial presentation of hard-panned left and right stereo images and be motivated to remedy it, unless this turns out to be another preference associated with the professional side of the industry.


I always try to weight opinions of people in WBF with what I can know about the posters, their preferences and systems.
 

mep

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Like the fact that diet soft drinks, decaf coffee, low-fat ice cream and skim milk try and mimic the taste of their unaltered cousins, digital gives you enough substance so you know you are hearing music, but at the same time, you still know something isn’t quite right. Now given enough time and distance from regular soft drinks, regular coffee, real ice cream and whole milk, you may well come to prefer the altered choices. But your choice/preference for the altered choices doesn’t mean they succeeded in tasting exactly like the originals.


And for those of you with substantial digital collections of music, it’s quite possible that the majority of your digital music was sourced from analog tape. You need to keep that in mind when you think about how good your digital music sounds because it can never sound better than the source it was derived from.

I have been listening to the Beatles my entire life (well, almost anyway) and the sounds from all of their albums are engraved in my brain. The first Beatles albums that were released on CD were horrid (and I have every one of them), and then after much fanfare and ballyhoo, we had the ‘ultimate’ digital remastering that was years in the making. We have the remastered mono collection, the remastered stereo collection, and for 50,000 people, a 24 bit flac file version on a USB stick tucked inside a green apple. I have all of them and they have all disappointed me greatly. They are all souless and at my fingertips via my Iphone interface to Foobar. If I think about, I can’t say that I know of a single album that was recorded in analog and originally released on vinyl that sounds better via digital.

Back to my original point, I do enjoy all of my sources and some of my digital files sound damn good. However, if I’m going to rank them (and I did), digital falls to the bottom of the totem pole. I’m still a customer at HDtracks though.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Yet you expect us to take yours. You recently said that no digital system at even the highest levels of resolution is capable of reproducing 15ips vinyl -- you have said this kind of thing many times before; always as a definitive statement of fact, without qualification, with no hint that it is just your opinion, with no acknowledgement that all of the objective evidence stands against your opinion. And if that opinion is questioned, your answer is always the same -- you haven't heard a good enough system.

It's a bad answer. A very weak answer. Even wild speculation regarding why hi res digital is clearly capable of capturing everything on a 15ips, 1/4" tape, including its distortions, yet mysteriously does not, would be a better answer; an answer that might actually leave open the possibility of further discussion. This answer -- your system must not be good enough to hear what I hear? Propriety keeps me from saying where that leaves the discussion.

Tim

i agree with Mark. no; it's not PC.....but there is no question he is correct.

screw propriety, let'r rip Tim.

in the opening post Mark asked those who don't have the proper tools at hand for vinyl and tape listening to bow out. that's not PC either. he wanted to hear from listeners with those choices to weigh in on their pecking order.

Bruce knew where this would go. me too and so i did not comment.

and what do you know here we are, on the 2nd page.

well?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
There is indeed something wonderful when you turn on R2R and it pressurizes your room like no other audio format. I agree with mep and MikeL in spite of those distortions etc to which Tim and Tom allude
 

mep

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Tom-I think we are just at the beginning of coming to terms with all of the vagarious digital distortions that we didn’t even know existed. If your harmonic distortion theory is correct, I wonder why harmonic distortion makes music sound more real and alive than the diet soda version? We always seem to come back to the analog distortion theory where we keep piling on distortions one on top of another and the sum of the pile somehow is positive in that all of the distortions add up and make analog sound better than it should without all of the distortions. I don’t buy that theory.
 

flez007

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I have to agree on mep original lines on this thread, after having my Nagra back after almost three months in restoration, I am enjoying again my 15ips tapes, they are well above the rest of my other sources. Not sure if I will agree on the "..in my room/system.." quote thou...this is a phenomena that can be easily replicated at any properly set-up system (at least at those who posted here). Music availability and convenience are parallel variables IMO.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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i agree with Mark. no; it's not PC.....but there is no question he is correct.

screw propriety, let'r rip Tim.

in the opening post Mark asked those who don't have the proper tools at hand for vinyl and tape listening to bow out. that's not PC either. he wanted to hear from listeners with those choices to weigh in on their pecking order.

Bruce knew where this would go. me too and so i did not comment.

and what do you know here we are, on the 2nd page.





well?


Mike-I just wanted to give an honest assessment of how I think things stack up and was curious if other people who can play back all three sources felt the same. I wasn’t interested in being PC, I was/am interested to know if others feel the same as I do or if their rankings were different. I can’t get there without asking the question. I wasn’t looking to start another food fight which is why I asked those who don’t own all three sources to bow out. I didn’t want others to speculate and proffer opinions that aren’t based on first-hand experience and exposure.

Also, I have been meaning to ask you how your Ampex electronics are coming along.
 

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