What Kind Of Audiophile Are You? Have You Reached Audio Nirvana ?

fas42 · Jan 22, 2012

LordoftheRingsEE said:
And active listening also means emotionally involved.

...

We can go to a musical concert at a Concert Hall and be sitting at the same spot for few hours.
And we can go to a Jazz cabaret and dancing all over the place.

Bob, Steve's gonna make money some day by publishing your fine prose in a neat little booklet for people to hold close to their hearts ...

If I'm not emotionally involved with the music, then it ain't right, and it gets turned off ...

I once listened to Beethoven's 7th in the front row at the Sydney Opera House: the ultimate rock concert. As in I was rocking from side to side; even classical can get your body moving to the rhythm. By the end of that piece there were vast shreds of material hanging from all the violin bows; and they talk about lead guitarists doing in a string or two during a high energy number ...

Frank

fas42 · Jan 22, 2012

Steve Williams said:
I guess that's the difference between you and I Frank. When I sit down in the sweet spot in my room it is to listen and to enjoy the to enjoy the music. I love my system Frank. There's nothing that needs to be soldered or power supplies to be modded or other tweaks to apply. I don't ever have to put my ear to the tweeter to hear good sound. I have good sound Frank. Methinks you're preaching to the choir. Maybe you need to do some active listening in a system that just sounds good. I assure you it is a toe tapping experience

I'm certain I would find your system very musical, Steve, others here have indicated that such is the case. But unfortunately I have been to too many homes where quite ambitious systems don't deliver, so it becomes more a period of sufferance in those cases.

When I said overload, I meant in a good sense: I tend to run the system quite loud, approaching realistic levels and so listening to a single album with attentive focus means the senses' needs to be stimulated are replete after a while, your appetite has been satisfied; more is too much for that moment. An example: Ike and Tina Turner in concert, by the end of the album your senses are all danced out, you've got to do something else to chill out ...

Frank

Steve Williams · Jan 22, 2012

Frank

You are missing my point. Quite simply, at some point you just have to sit down and enjoy the music. I don't believe that's something you have ever done Frank because from virtually all of your posts you seem to always find fault with something in a system and the holy grail has escaped you. I don't disagree with many of your premisses but at some time you just have to sit and listen and enjoy the music. I know that there are better systems than mine Frank but you really are missing my point. At some point "you surrender to the sound of the music". For me that is active listening

andromedaaudio · Jan 22, 2012

Yes i have reached audionirvana, i would still like to try some other components but i dont think they would be necessarilly better , different yes , i am pretty curious to the cat jl3 sign amps.
I had heard a nice avalon set up at a dealer 10 years ago and i was intrigued that that level of audio was possible thats how it started

I will design speakers that are more non resonant with a different midrangedriver and i will elevate the bass 3 dB s ( change to eton 11 inch hexacone) but the big drive is gone .
For me speakers is kind of a done deal now , and i dont find the models from wilson avalon kharma to be considerably better than their models from lets say 5 years ago, although the maxx 3 seemed to be better integrated as compared to the maxx 2 (which i heard myself )
llyodelee is very happy with his X 1 for example ,
So i am just enjoying my lp s and blue ray /dvd s i am a great movie fan as well

http://cybwiz.blogspot.com/2011/03/andromeda-design-illusion-loudspeaker.html
There has been a review of my system here , the amps were not mine , i run a convergent pre and krell evo amps although i might prefer levinson 33 33h or 436 , i am a levinson fan
I translated it to english
I must admit my system could be better when i would treat my room acoustically and i would like to hear or maybe purchase the new 52 2 box ref pre from mark levinson
henk jan

NorthStar · Jan 22, 2012

Steve Williams said:
I guess that's the difference between you and I Frank. When I sit down in the sweet spot in my room it is to listen and to enjoy the to enjoy the music. I love my system Frank. There's nothing that needs to be soldered or power supplies to be modded or other tweaks to apply. I don't ever have to put my ear to the tweeter to hear good sound. I have good sound Frank. Methinks you're preaching to the choir. Maybe some of* you need to do some active listening in a system that just sounds good. I assure you it is a toe tapping experience

That I fully believe, and I wish ... :b

* Added "some of" Steve, if please you don't mind.

fas42 · Jan 22, 2012

Steve Williams said:
At some point "you surrender to the sound of the music". For me that is active listening

Well, now I'm a little confused. The way I would describe it is that I approach, if that is the right term, the process of listening with an open mind. Or ear. No matter what the system I give it the benefit of the doubt, that is, I am looking to hear "music" from it. And that even goes for those in-ceiling speakers you get in restaurants, etc. At times I think, that very unpretentious sound system is doing a very nice job of projecting a bit of jazz or whatever into the space.

But, if the system is trying a bit harder, and doesn't hit the mark, then the sound of the over-exertion, shall I call it, hits me squarely in the head, unpleasantly. It's like a singer who tries to push her voice outside of its natural range: you're aware of the stress of aiming for more than the person can comfortably do, and you mentally tense up, waiting for the next not quite right note. Many stage shows are a disaster for me, my head overloads, in a bad way, trying to deal with the screeching, overcooked sound. If I surrendered to the sound then I would end up with a screaming headache ...

Remember, my own system is a work in progress, I'm still trying to understand all the elements that contribute to good sound, versus not so good sound. So I focus on where it's deficient; but when it's really humming that goes by the wayside, I am most certainly carried by the music at that moment. When I listen to other setups which are not firing I probably spend a third of the time being aware of the problems. After that, if I can't do anything about it, then I "let go" and just go with the music. So in that sense, yes, I have embraced active listening as you call it from that point on.

Probably a handy gauge for me is the "can I focus on something else?" test: while the music is playing relatively loudly can I, say, converse with the person next to me without starting to stress? If I can't, then I don't believe it's really worthwhile putting the energy into "active listening", unless it's socially necessary to do so ...

Frank

flez007 · Jan 22, 2012

Steve Williams said:
I guess that's the difference between you and I Frank. When I sit down in the sweet spot in my room it is to listen and to enjoy the to enjoy the music. I love my system Frank. There's nothing that needs to be soldered or power supplies to be modded or other tweaks to apply. I don't ever have to put my ear to the tweeter to hear good sound. I have good sound Frank. Methinks you're preaching to the choir. Maybe you need to do some active listening in a system that just sounds good. I assure you it is a toe tapping experience

+1

My dedicated room is physicaly at the end of my state, for casual/at-home listning I have a B&O (yikes!) in wall system.

Saying that, the place whete I listen to music longer is in the car, I "toe-tap" everwhere except the gas pedal!

Johnny Vinyl · Jan 22, 2012

I think I prefer calling myself a "musicphile" as opposed to an audiophile, as that is what I derive the most pleasure from. It's been like that from day one (back in the early sixties) and I'm as passionate about it now as I was back then. To me there is nothing more pleasureable and rewarding than finding an LP I've long sought after, and to then cue it up and take it in. Whist this can sometimes be a crapshoot, I've been very fortunate as few mistakes were made. I am now branching out a little more and trying to develop a decent-sized .flac-based PC library, and I'm slowly getting there. Again, the focus here is much more on the content than it is the components.

My system is very basic, at least in comparison to many of the ones here, and I would like to upgrade some things as I'm able to. However, it is NOT a priority, as what I have currently own entertains and satisfies me tremendously. I can honestly say that if no changes ever occurred to my system, it would still be more than acceptable to me. It certainly would never detract from my passion for the music itself.

On the subject of being an "active" or "passive" listener, I am definitely both, and I don't always have to have music playing in the background either. I listen to my vinyl in both modes, but the most enjoyable to me is when I listen "actively" and I make the time to do this. Without actively listening I cannot cue into the record and take in all the sounds that were meant to be heard. This cannot be achieved in a passive listening mode, and damn it...I paid good money for some of my recordings and I want to hear it all.

cjfrbw · Jan 22, 2012

Nirvana sounds like some kind of squamous socialist paradise. I guess the concept of transmigration through different lifetimes of audio is well taken, however.

The jaundice tinged wiki definition would place me as an equipment type, but not for the reasons implied. I have always been a budget seeker concerning software and used the extra money to buy better equipment.

I have pursued a "KIND" of sound, not specific equipment. Sounds of old tube radios and hi fi from my childhood, juke boxes, PA systems, and movie theater systems. I have gotten into some strange equipment combos to get the target sound that is a collective figment of my audio memory.

My system does things I have never heard elsewhere in many sampled hi end systems, but it emulates my audio archive memory quite well, so I guess for me it is nirvana.

My Santa Cruz system in an 11 by 12 room has turned into big surprise. It started out as a below 5k budget system, but is now about a12k complete surround sound, home theater system that is a mini-clone of my main system but without vinyl.

It belies the idea that a small room cannot create a massive sounding, high quality effect. 12k is a lot of money to some on this board, mere jingling pocket change to others, but this small room system sounds manifestly superior to anything I heard at California Audio Show with exception of the biggies on the first floor in large rooms (Wilson/Spectral, MBL, Magico). It also has two Stax headphones with a dedicated 300b amplifier(Hogan 26'300b) to drive the Stax headsets.

The SC system includes my usual touch of wierdness, a single ended 6v6 tube rectified integrated amp driving a 15 watt Wavac SET to supply the midrange ribbon. Gives the midrange and upper midrange a gorgeous, molten effect with a little bit of crunch and snap, just great, and I mostly listen to CD's and AAC/MP3 on this system.

egidius · Jan 22, 2012

Steve Williams said:
Being a member of many audio fora as well as personally being involved in this hobby for 50 years it is apparent that there are 2 types of audiophiles as defined so well in Wikipedia......

An audiophile is a person who has a great interest in high-fidelity sound reproduction. Some audiophiles are more interested in collecting and listening to music, while others are more interested in collecting and listening to audio components, whose "sound quality" they consider as important as the recorded musical performance, or even more important. The ratio of an audiophile's spending on software (music) versus hardware (audio components) is a rough guide to where they stand in the audiophile spectrum.

Reading through the threads here, there is no doubt in my mind that indeed we have 2 types of audiophiles here as described in the above definition and quite likely a 3rd which is a combination of both. There are countless members here whose audio system is always in a state of flux and changing to the point where IMO it becomes difficult if not impossible to appreciate the music because it becomes far too analytic as they search for the Holy Grail of sound. Then there are others who just appreciate music for what it is and have vast collections of music. Their systems remain unchanged for many years and they love what they have. And then there is the 3rd group who in their quest for the Holy Grail assemble a massive collection of music.

I suppose we have another group here who are analyzing the music trying to make bad music good as a sign of a good system. This leaves me somewhat senseless from a lack of understanding but I guess there are always extremes of anything. This to me is not audiophilia but a weird form of DIY where everything in a system needs to be modified, changed, soldered etc to make it sound right.

I must admit that for many years I belonged to the first group as I tweaked my system to where it is now. Over the past several years however I have a smile on my face and toes are tapping when I listen to my system. I have given up chasing the elusive and truly love what I have. I have said over the past few years that the only thing I want to add is a MAC based computer music server as well as a persistant thought of returning to vinyl (which most of my friends, including myself think I am nuts) but that's really it.

So what say all of you? And be honest. Have you reached Audio Nirvana or do you have restless energy to continue to swap equipment in and out of your system

There are countless threads here where members have speakers coming in and going out faster than the moving trucks can bring them as well as constantly changing DAC's, transports, cables, preamps and amps. Changes are made so often that I have wondered if they are enjoying the music or merely analyzing components in their system. Sometimes more than one change happens at the same time so I cannot fathom how they figure what they heard different from each component due to the sweeping same time changes in their systems. This to me is not enjoying the music but rather a quest to have experienced most every component in their systems. How many used components do we see like this for sale on Audiogon. It's components in and components out in blistering fashion.

My mantra over the years has always been, "did I hear something better or just something different. If it is better, then, how so?"

Audiophilia or audiofoolia

Me being a musician makes me completely satisfied!
Me being a listener, I do not know, if I am satisfied; but it has more to do with my inner peace..

so when not at peace:

I mainly buy gear when it walks on to me, second hand. Some of it was a complete waste of time, and some - - some brought me faar down the line to stopping. A year ago I would have said, I was there, especially with my amplification by Berning and Merlin, those speakers fit my room at home ( in my studio I use professional gear, which has not changed for years, except the digital playback.)

But along came Audio Consulting amplification which I had to buy! This has had an interesting change towards quieter listening, but again, I think, I am there, just not in the mood to sell the Bernings, that's all!!

e

Robert · Jan 22, 2012

Nirvana, yes. For me, it was always an end destination and not a journey. I've had a couple detours, but I've always knew what I wanted, was able to cut through the BS by reading between the lines, and took some big risks which paid off very well.

Honest truth, I'd rather listen to my system than most live classical performances. If I am traveling to a city with a world class orchestra or opera, and they were performing something I enjoyed, then I would definitely go for the experience. But, I've had my share of mediocre performances in less than ideal seats. Live performances which transcend time and space are rare. Memorable live performances, probably 1 out of 5, on average.

When funds permit, I would still like to move-up the line with some of the cabling, by the same manufacturers. The cost of precious metals makes that very difficult. No big deal if it takes time.

For music, yes I probably have more than I could possibly listen to. Yet, I always feel compelled to buy more. Seems like I am always trying to get that high in finding something new, or in a performance perfectly realized. Live performances cost alot of money, recordings are cheap.

egidius · Jan 22, 2012

Robert said:
Honest truth, I'd rather listen to my system than most live classical performances. If I am traveling to a city with a world class orchestra or opera, and they were performing something I enjoyed, then I would definitely go for the experience. But, I've had my share of mediocre performances in less than ideal seats. Live performances which transcend time and space are rare. Memorable live performances, probably 1 out of 5, on average.

Even though I can commiserate and sometimes even understand, I cannot accept this as a continuous state:
There is music and musicians whose performances you will never be able to get in a tin:
Maybe institutionalised "performers" who have been picked for their perfection and stability and training pedigree can lead to this, although I believe it will get harder for them again - not least because of youtube.
But for example, I have a friend, japanes by chance, whose concerts are complete acts of dedication, which may make you recall the ancient legends of samurais: NEVER will you hear those people, if you stay behind the system.
And I say hear, but what is there to hear, when the ear gets only a small particle of the truth: I've lived through concerts, when you could not shut your eyes, because it sounded terrible, but out you came with the feeling of a grand moment: Andras Schiff, Mikos Perenyi (both impeccable) and the very old Norbert Brainin of Amadeus Quartet fame, who truly could not play anymore, no you could not say that! - but his performance was one of the enlighening moments in my life, and I am sure, Andras and Miklos will remember this concert as clearly as me in the public..
fwiw. their is really no religion in this ;-)

audioguy · Jan 22, 2012

While I would like to say that it was all about the music, that would be a lie. I LOVED the shinny stuff that made music happen, and I'm not so certain that it was not the driving force. But there is a Vince Lombardi quote (stolen from another WBF poster, CraigJohn): “Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

I love this quote but If we chase perfection in high end audio, we end up poor (if we have the OCD addiction that I had). So I have given up, because there is ALWAYS something "better" that moves us closer to "perfection". I have also quit listening to 2 speakers for music reproduction because, it comes nowhere near representing what I hear at any live performance. YMMV. I have heard some amazing 2 channel systems with incredible speakers/electronics (including several members of this forum) and others as well: moving, detailed, musical, accurate but none do (for me) what a multi-channel system does in providing more of a sense of real music in real space. That, by the way, is why I was dissapointed in Lexicon not releasing their new SSP.

I am now safe in saying that, for me, now, it is (mostly) all about the music!! (Once addicted, always addicted)

fas42 · Jan 22, 2012

egidius said:
Even though I can commiserate and sometimes even understand, I cannot accept this as a continuous state:
There is music and musicians whose performances you will never be able to get in a tin:

The trouble is that you can't pick up a handy guide somewhere that lists all these "good ones", that are coming up: to separate the wheat from the chaff ...

I know where Robert is coming from: years ago I went to a piano recital at the Opera House and I can remember thinking at the time this is pretty lacklustre; the pianist was fine and so was the instrument but the impact, and sense of an event was missing ...

But, on the other hand, supporting your point, at about the same time I went to a concert by Vollenweider, a magic experience, they did musical encores which outstripped what the CD tracks contained by a wide margin, in terms of spontaneity and vitality. Horses for courses ...

Frank

Robert · Jan 22, 2012

egidius said:
Even though I can commiserate and sometimes even understand, I cannot accept this as a continuous state:
There is music and musicians whose performances you will never be able to get in a tin:
Maybe institutionalised "performers" who have been picked for their perfection and stability and training pedigree can lead to this, although I believe it will get harder for them again - not least because of youtube.

Hi egidius,

I'm just being honest, as are you. I am a music lover. You are a musician. I would hope that you are internally driven to devote time towards these live experiences.

If I am home, the stereo is on. I approach music from afar, not having been formally trained, and that is the way I like it. I disect everything else in my life and other hobbies, so music is that last refuge to see it from the outside.

I have 2 young kids. I work alot. My home is my castle. It's a matter of how many times one has to push to proverbial bar to get a pellet. For me, at least locally, I have to press too often.

I was recently in Amsterdam on business. I had to go to the Royal Concerthouse for the experience. It fell short. The played Zemlinsky, with whom I am familiar, and it was fine. No better, really, than the version I have on disc. The singers were less than 10 feet away from me, and yet, it didn't lift my spirit. They also played a modern piece, world premiere, composer in the audience. I didn't care for it. It was a modern violin piece, and many modern violin pieces sound the same to me.

Today, I by chance put in Damnation of Faust by Berlioz with Chung conducting. French music is not always my passion, but I was enthralled. It had me from the very beginning. I had planned on just listening to the first part, but I couldn't turn it off. I felt very happy to have played that piece.

I've heard some remarkable performances. Mahler in Cleveland and Czech Republic. Szymankowski in Boston. Wagner in NY and Vienna. Berg in NY. Bruch in Sweden. I'll keep going, seeking the performance that is more than just getting all the notes correct.

NorthStar · Jan 22, 2012

Allow me to make an analogy please.

* I just bought a brand new Lamborghini (audio gear), and I'm taking it for a test drive (break-in).
I do a lot of mileage to make sure it is performing at its top capability.

Alright, she's ready now. So I go on the road to enjoy the ride ...
Handle the road very nicely, and I'm happy at the control.

I do that for several days, weeks, months, years ...
Every time I come back home I always got different overall feelings, and start analysing why.
It is obvious that the road (music recording) has a profound influence on the experience.
- Some roads are perfectly designed for my car, and others just don't seem to mesh well.
The decor while riding my car on the road, and the handling, and the joy, the emotions, ...
all part of the ride.

That's it! :b

fas42 · Jan 22, 2012

Bob, we've already gone the car analogy, at least Tim and I did some time back, no conclusions of course; but my point would be that the roads are already there, they have existed just so, for many, many years in their various states of "being". So for me the ideal is a car that makes every road a satisfying experience to traverse, makes me enjoy the journey no matter what.

If the vehicle, the Lamborghini, transfers every bump and undulation to my posterior with full force on anything less than a perfectly smooth surface, that would make me avoid it with a vengeance. The fact that it happens to do brilliantly on a sweeping Italian coast road just wouldn't do it for me, I'm afraid ...

Frank

NorthStar · Jan 22, 2012

Yeah but they do sometimes fix the bad roads (remastering). :b

And then, they don't do the same with the bad decors, the 'paysages' (grooves or true bit depth).

DaveyF · Jan 22, 2012

I think I fall into the 2nd category....close to audio nirvana, BUT......BUT.... darn BUT's

There's always seemingly a little bit more that I can ring out of the system....and so we begin all over again

egidius · Jan 23, 2012

joy

Robert said:
Hi egidius,

I'm just being honest, as are you. I am a music lover. You are a musician. I would hope that you are internally driven to devote time towards these live experiences.

If I am home, the stereo is on. I approach music from afar, not having been formally trained, and that is the way I like it. I disect everything else in my life and other hobbies, so music is that last refuge to see it from the outside.

I have 2 young kids. I work alot. My home is my castle. It's a matter of how many times one has to push to proverbial bar to get a pellet. For me, at least locally, I have to press too often.

I was recently in Amsterdam on business. I had to go to the Royal Concerthouse for the experience. It fell short. The played Zemlinsky, with whom I am familiar, and it was fine. No better, really, than the version I have on disc. The singers were less than 10 feet away from me, and yet, it didn't lift my spirit. They also played a modern piece, world premiere, composer in the audience. I didn't care for it. It was a modern violin piece, and many modern violin pieces sound the same to me.

Today, I by chance put in Damnation of Faust by Berlioz with Chung conducting. French music is not always my passion, but I was enthralled. It had me from the very beginning. I had planned on just listening to the first part, but I couldn't turn it off. I felt very happy to have played that piece.

I've heard some remarkable performances. Mahler in Cleveland and Czech Republic. Szymankowski in Boston. Wagner in NY and Vienna. Berg in NY. Bruch in Sweden. I'll keep going, seeking the performance that is more than just getting all the notes correct.

..I know, thats why I commiserate; it was a personnal rant, not at all against you ;-) I guess we just have to suss out how to enjoy ;-)

What Kind Of Audiophile Are You? Have You Reached Audio Nirvana ?

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