Amplifier and speaker as a system

So which one is more important-hot amp and average speaker or hot speaker and average amp? I am trying to understand your point here. No one (I think) is going to argue how important the amp/speaker interface is. They absoultely have to be a good match for each other. And Reginald, are you from the U.S.?

Mark

Gregadd,

agree that speaker-amp synergy is the 'beating heart' of any system and ultimately dominates setting the character of the system and is typically the result of the particular 'sonic vision' of that listener. my choice of darTZeel--Evolution MM3's is the result of my perspective on musical truth for me.

i do think that the third 'leg' of this equation is 'the room' and that any listener's choice of 'speaker-amp' must also have the particular room in mind to complete the picture. i say this because i don't think my tastes in musical truth have changed since my previous smaller room and Kharma--Tenor OTL but my larger room required a whole different type of speaker with far greater abilities in the lower octaves.

so my perspective on a system would add 'the room' to 'Amplifier and speaker as a system'. and these three parts would complete the picture.

Reginald-Have you been drinking tonight or did your kids rearrange the keys on your keyboard?

Mark

I guess I would like to think with the exception of certain speakers, that a really good amplifier should work with a wide variety of speakers. Otherwise, I'm thinking that all one is doing is matching colorations and not trying to find components with the least coloration.

Now obviously power and room size can come into play with some speakers; needless to say, some feel that too much power is just enough-esp. given that there are several high power, high quality amps around (as opposed to yesteryear where the general consensus was that low powered tube amps sounded better than their large wattage brethren).

Now Steve is also blessed with a speaker that is comfortable with low wattage amplifiers (one reason I had the W/P 5.1s around years ago so as to be able to review low power amps) such as the LAMMs. His LAMMs wouldn't work with the Summits

Gregadd said:

Mike- to the extent possible you try to limit the variables as best you can. I have envied your room and equipment for a long time. I am still not sure why you felt compelled to dump the VR-9. Oh well, the saying is ,'Better is the enemy of good." I am sure you noted the Von Schweikert System being set up in the Philippines. Quite impressive, no?

I'll post some pictures of my room one day . A smallish apartment living room with drywall and 8' ceilings. More likely to be overloaded. 19'(l)x14'(w)x 8(h). Plenty big for the CLS and a jazz ensemble fits in nicely.
Your point is well taken.

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If you heard the Evo3s, you'd know why

Hi

I find myself in complete (rare) agreement with Myles. I do see the Room-speaker interface as the most important factor. Great/best/Ultimate amplifier plus Ultimate Speaker in a so-so room results in a so-so performance. O

Frantz

Gregadd said:

Not sure what your point is. Those of us who have tried low powered tube amps and high powered ss amps in the same system have often been left very confused.

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No I was comparing the sound of low with high power tube amps. And there was an issue years ago with output transformer tradeoffs between the two. But yes, low powered ss also used to sound better than large powered, to wit the old Bedini amps. But am not sure what you're referring to when comparing low powered tubes amps with ss amps. I suspect one thing is that the tube amps sound bigger than one might expect based on their power rating?

Have to say that have tried cj amps with many speakers and haven't heard them sound bad yet (Vienna Acoustics, Alons, Maggies, Wilsons, MLs). But if one wants to talk synergy, the cj amps on Maggies were extra special. I always attributed the special magic to the amps liking seeing a even 4 ohm load (even if the speakers were only 87db efficient) across the music spectrum. Funny though that the old Berning EA2100 sounded awful on MGIIIs-one of the few amps that didn't cut it on those planars. No low end whatsoever

Then I have to say some of the synergy you're asking about can be traceable to whether you're talking about planars, estats or box speakers. To my ears, the dipoles just have more resolution and show off that particular weakness in the front end source as well as the amps (I hear that so blatantly now between cartridges with the new cj amp). Back when I had the Wilson 5.1s, their lack of resolution compared to the Martin Logans or my modded MGIIIas used to make me crazy since I loved the imaging and dynamics of the Wilsons Have to say that if were to choose a box speaker nowadays would look at the new Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Fabers, Wilsons, Evolutions, Vandersteen, VS, Verity, etc.

Gregadd said:

Mike- to the extent possible you try to limit the variables as best you can. I have envied your room and equipment for a long time. I am still not sure why you felt compelled to dump the VR-9. Oh well, the saying is ,'Better is the enemy of good." I am sure you noted the Von Schweikert System being set up in the Philippines. Quite impressive, no?

I'll post some pictures of my room one day . A smallish apartment living room with drywall and 8' ceilings. More likely to be overloaded. 19'(l)x14'(w)x 8(h). Plenty big for the CLS and a jazz ensemble fits in nicely.
Your point is well taken.

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Gregadd,

it's a bit complicated to explain how and why i switched from the VR9SE's to the MM3's....but here goes,

first; i never intended to change from Von Schweikerts and really did enjoy the VR9SE's.....a great speaker. while i did like the VR9's i had missed the transparent mid-range from the Accuton ceramic mid-range in the Kharma Exquisite's......to the degree of asking my dealer about changing the mid-range driver on the VR9's. the mid-range of the VR9 was good but a bit dark and less clear. to no surprise it was not possible to switch drivers.

in 2006 i was happily enjoying my VR9's when a friend from Hong Kong e-mailed to ask for help in locating a set of VR9's for a friend of his. the wait at that time was over 6 months for delivery. my dream speaker at that time was the VR11SE's, and when i was asked this it went thru my mind that maybe i could work out a way to end up with the VR11's. i checked with my dealer and after some discussion we agreed on me purchasing my dealer's VR11 demo pair if i could sell my VR9's. i e-mail my H.K. friend back and offered my own speakers. my friend had visited me the previous year so had seen and heard my speakers; we agreed on a price. i then called my dealer back to proceed and discovered that Von Schweikert had actually sold my dealer's demo VR11's without telling him (or paying him either). note; this situation eventually became part of a lawsuit that was recently settled.

at this point Von Schweikert agreed to build me a new set of VR11SE's at an agreed upon price. this was in July of 06' and delivery was to be in 8 to 12 weeks. they even sent me a set of loaner VR7SE's (which i used until Dec 06' and then sat in my garage until 2009 when they were returned to Von Schweikert---that was the first time they requested that they be returned). anyway....i was excited to have the VR11SE's on the way.

that same August i was at Torry Pines in San Deigo at a business meeting; and visited Kevin Malmgren to listen to the new speaker he was working on, the Evolution. the Evolution was a speaker initially developed over some years by my friend Jonathan Tinn. i had heard various versions of the project when i visited Jonathan in Portland. Jonathan had told me that Kevin was getting close to a final version and when i was down near him i should visit him and hear it. i did and was quite taken with it. it used the Accuton mid-range and immediatly heard that magic. i was a bit conflicted as i had already ordered the VR11's and also wanted those. as the price of the Evolutions was much less i decided to order them too, and then sell them if i preferred the VR11's.

around the end of September i asked my dealer about how the VR11's were coming and was told they were proceeding. again 2 weeks later i asked again.....and so on and so on.

it turned out that Von Schweikert never even started my speakers.

i took delivery of my Evolutions in December of that year.

then the following June i was on a phone call with Von Schweikert and my dealer and was asked if i still wanted the VR11's. at this point i said no; it was time to go on.

i don't exactly know what happenned behind the scenes here. i did not sell the VR9's because i did not like them. in fact; i liked them so much i wanted to move up.

my current perspective is that the Accuton ceramic mid-range combined with the ribbon tweeter in the MM3 is a magical combination. i love the Baltic Birch layered construction and the adjustability of the MM3. i do think it's closer to my ideal of how a speaker should sound. but the VR9SE is still a great speaker.

I'm about to find out how important the synergy is between the amp and speakers as I am soon (this Friday) to receive delivery of Mark Seaton Catalysts that have the amps as part of the speakers. Should be interesting.

As Frantz pointed out, the speaker/room interface is also critical. However, we are back to the "weakest link in the chain" scenario. Let's say your speaker/room interface is great but you mated the speaker with a poorly matching amplifier. Guess what? You still have a major problem. Everything needs to be taken into consideration in order to extract the maximum amount of information and deliver great sound to your ears. It's all critical in the end. You won't have great sound without a great room that matches well with your speakers, but you won't have great sound if your source components suck and vice versa.

Mark

Yeah, but getting a competent amplifier is trivial compared to the speaker room interaction.

Gregadd said:

Finding a musical amp is tough.

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What does this mean?

When you buy the amp your work is over when you bring it home. With a speaker your work has just begun.

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So very true.

Ron Party said:

Yeah, but getting a competent amplifier is trivial compared to the speaker room interaction.

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I agree with your statement. However, I didn't know we were trying to determine which is the hardest part to accomplish. None of the things involved with obtaining great sound are cheap or easy.

Mark