ML No.33 - how does it compare with the best today

Roysen

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The Mark Levinson No.33 Ref. Amps were considered among the best in the market 10-15 years ago. How does it compare today?

...and technology aside how does it sound compared to the ML No.53 Ref. Amps. The No.53 is a technical marvel and something new in a productcategory where little really groundbreaking has been introduced in quite a while. However most experiences with its sound are not that convincing - including R.H's test in TAS. Is it really better or just different than the No.33?
 

flez007

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Aug 31, 2010
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Roysen, I own an ML333 (not the 33 which is a Reference model for ML), I compared some weeks ago my amp with a newer ML 4xx (can´t recall the exact model right now) and I liked them both but sounded different in my system - the ML333 was more sweet rendering mid-range tones, particularly female voices, the new one was more punchy and had a better frequency response. I am sure that a 33 at a good asking price is definitely something to consider.

My two pesos!
 

amirm

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...and technology aside how does it sound compared to the ML No.53 Ref. Amps. The No.53 is a technical marvel and something new in a productcategory where little really groundbreaking has been introduced in quite a while. However most experiences with its sound are not that convincing - including R.H's test in TAS. Is it really better or just different than the No.33?
I thought RH' review was quite positive.

We use the 53 every day in our showroom and I have compared it to other ML amps and some others. The amp is incredibly nice and has outperformed all others. It is super neutral sounding, exceptionally powerful and essentially without limit. I wrote a little review of Mark Levinson 53 that may be useful to read.

I think part of the issue with the amp is that so few places have them for anyone to hear. So experiences are scant. To fix that :), we are willing to participate in any kind of comparison local members may be willing to participate in. We talked about doing it at Mike's house but he has powered bass in his speakers so I didn't think it was a good test bed. If anyone else has a high-end system in Seattle area and wants a free test drive of the amp and comparison session at our expense, I am happy to organize it and then share the outcome here regardless of how it goes :).
 

flez007

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nice review Amir!, I briefly heard this amp at RMAF with JBL speakers and also liked it.
 

flez007

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I asked the same question to the gentleman behind the JBL/Levinson room at RMAF, he said .. "a sense of end-less power".
 

LL21

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If anyone else has a high-end system in Seattle area and wants a free test drive of the amp and comparison session at our expense, I am happy to organize it and then share the outcome here regardless of how it goes :).

Very nice offer. Hope someone takes you up on this with some other SOTA amps...would love to read about the outcome!
 

amirm

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OK - and how does the 53 compare to the 33?
I don't know as we don't have a 33 on hand. My goal in amplification is to have it not change the sound and this kind of thing is good in my book: http://www.marklevinson.com/downloa...Technology Background V5 04032010_5.17.10.pdf

"Listen Testing & Evaluation
At each stage of the ?53’s development, extensive listen testing and thorough
measurements ensured that our goal of Mark Levinson Reference Class performance
was attained. In addition to multiple rounds of in-depth critical listen-testing over a
period spanning many, many months, a differential amplifier comparison methodology
was also employed. A low power, mostly passive reference amplifier design was
programmed with the ?53’s transfer function, and differentially (subtractively)
compared against the ?53 itself. By subtracting the signal output from the ?53, and
comparing against the reference transfer function design, our engineers were able listen
to any differential components between the two, and evolve the ?53’s design to
improve sound quality even further. "

Did 33 have a "sound" that you are seeking? Or is it neutrality? If it is the latter, then the above suffices on ways they have objectively tried to achieve it.

There is also this indirect reference to older products: http://www.marklevinson.com/downloads/products/prod_22_634473654338684909_ML No. 53.pdf

"BORN OF LISTENING
New Mark Levinson products are not introduced with
the seasons, or according to arbitrary marketing
schedules. They’re introduced as new technologies,
which have shown promise on paper, are perfected and
proven through rigorous in-house development and
evaluation procedures. In the case of the No
53, a highly
experienced evaluation team was assembled to conduct
blind and sighted listening tests of a novel switching
amplifier prototype, measuring it against past and
present Mark Levinson linear power amplifiers as
well as a range of competitive products.

As the development process wore on, power amplifiers
deemed sonically inferior were removed from further
testing. Several judges were surprised to learn that the
new switching amplifier was never among them. In
fact, the early No
53 prototype emerged as a winner,
with several panelists awarding it top honors for speed,
dynamics and clarity. It was, to say the least, an
unexpected result. For a mere prototype switching
amplifier to hold its own against linear amplifiers that
were deemed to be the very best the marketplace had to
offer – time-honored Mark Levinson models included –

meant we knew we were dealing with a
paradigm-shifting design.
Convinced that the minor quibbles that had come up
during the initial listening tests could be overcome, the
No
53 project was commissioned, and development of
the first new Mark Levinson Reference power amplifier
in more than a decade began in earnest. "
 

mep

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We talked about doing it at Mike's house but he has powered bass in his speakers so I didn't think it was a good test bed. If anyone else has a high-end system in Seattle area and wants a free test drive of the amp and comparison session at our expense, I am happy to organize it and then share the outcome here regardless of how it goes :).

Amir-First of all I want to say this is a kind offer. I was thinking about what you said last night about Mike’s speakers not being the ideal to listen to the ML amp because his speakers have built in bass amps. Having speakers with built in subs and amps myself, I’m convinced that you will hear whatever differences/qualities the ML amp brings to the table.

Every amp I have played through my speakers sounded different. And the funny thing is, even the bass will sound different with different amps because the bass amp built into the speakers is getting its signal from the amp feeding the speakers. I would wager a small fortune that belongs to someone else that Mike’s speakers when fed by his small power tube amp no longer have the same bass quality they had when fed by a high power SS amp. I bet they have lost their focus and punch with the low power tube amps in comparison to the SS amp.

The bass in my speakers never sounded as good as they do now until I quit using tube amps and drove them with much higher power SS amps. Using the Krell KSA-250 has taken that to a whole other level. So if Mike is willing to be the host and others are willing to show up and have a good time, you will hear what the ML amp is bringing to the table. There is no doubt in my mind-including the bass.
 

amirm

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Oh, I am not saying it may not make a sonic difference. The issue is that it is a lot of work to lug these monsters around and if we are going to do that, I like it to be representative of the typical usage of them which is as the sole driver.
 

microstrip

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I agree with you Amir about testing it full range. But there is also one other aspect to consider.

The EA MM3 are unusually efficient (93 dB/W ) and the test would not be representative of the power capabilities capabilities of the ML53. Also Mike owns a Darzeel preamplifier I have owned one for some time - and although it sounds really very good, it would not be in the line of sound described in the ML literature. The Dartzeel has a typical sound signature (as all great preamplifiers) but not aiming at the neutrality that seems to be the ex-libris of the ML53. But may be it would be a great match!
 

garylkoh

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I think part of the issue with the amp is that so few places have them for anyone to hear. So experiences are scant. To fix that :), we are willing to participate in any kind of comparison local members may be willing to participate in. We talked about doing it at Mike's house but he has powered bass in his speakers so I didn't think it was a good test bed. If anyone else has a high-end system in Seattle area and wants a free test drive of the amp and comparison session at our expense, I am happy to organize it and then share the outcome here regardless of how it goes :).

And I'm looking for someone with really current/power hungry speakers to pit my new prototype monoblocks against. How about we can kill 2 birds with one stone if I bring my monoblocks to Madrona and compare to the No.53's driving your Revel?
 

LL21

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Sounds cool...pls post the results!!!
 

mep

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How is a *winner* going to be decided? Is this going to be a double blind shootout? Can we make some expectation bias bets on the winning amp before the throw down at the hoedown?
 

amirm

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How is a *winner* going to be decided? Is this going to be a double blind shootout? Can we make some expectation bias bets on the winning amp before the throw down at the hoedown?
We are going to fly you over to decided Mark. :D

I don't know about Gary but from my point of view, this will be a casual test. Whoever's amp brings the ceiling down first, wins!!! :D
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
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How is a *winner* going to be decided? Is this going to be a double blind shootout? Can we make some expectation bias bets on the winning amp before the throw down at the hoedown?

No winner needs to be decided. The real winner will be the music. I just wanted a passive, current-hungry (non-powered) speaker to try the amp out on (besides the MG3.6). It's going to be a casual test. I don't want to do the double-blind level-matched to 0.1dB test, and I don't think that Amir will want that either.
 

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