Avalon time

south

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Nov 4, 2011
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Hi

I just discovered this forum. As an Avalon fan and user (three pairs over the last 8 years) maybe you could share your experience on the following.

I currently own the Eidolon Diamond, powered by a Soulution 710/721 pair. Source is a DCS Scarlatti full system.

I am curious about the Avalon Time, which would be the logical next step. My room is big (12metres x 4x 3,10) and i would like to have a bit more bass. I would also like to hear what the current generation of Avalon is capable of.
I do not want to change the amplification or source at this stage. Is anyone familiar with the combination of Soulution and Avalon Time? The 125 watts of the 710 are more than enough for the Vision, indeed it sound more powerful than the Spectral 250 (200 watts) it replaced. However, I am not sure if the 710 can handle the 2 woofers of the Time.

Many thanks for any input.


Best
South
 

flez007

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Hi South, and welcome to the Forum!

I am not familiar with the Soulution line (only had a brief experience at last RMAF), and while I know they are really good amps, the 125W specification might be a bit low for the Time (how it handles your Eidolon right now?).... Some Avalon owners use subwoofers as an option to complement the last octave down, but IMHO a proper speaker placement helps a lot in rendering a full frequency response.

Since it will be hard to have them for audition in your room, I would suggest you to contact Luciene Pichette at Avalon Acoustics, he is a very experienced professional and can walk your throu.
 

LL21

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From Roy Gregory's Review in HiFi+ which you can read for free online:

"The Time was happy with anything from a good 100 Watts up. Amps used for the review included the Gamut M250i monos, the Bernings and even the Hovland RADIA, whose modest rated output underlined the fact that in this instance it is subtlety and quality that count."

At 89db and 4ohms...though i dont know the 'real load' for this speaker, i suspect if the Soulution is an amp that can generate high current, lots of amperes, your 125 watts (or in the case of the Time, 250 watts with 4ohms) will probably allow you to maximize how powerful the Time feels (ie good dynamic range which will not collapse at extreme transients...and actually make you quite deaf if you really want to go there.

Your room is very, very large so you may not fill it like an orchestra but even at 9 meters away from the speakers i think the math says you still ought to be able to deliver comfortably over 100 decibels. 100 decibels if you look it up is about equivalent to a jackhammer at 3-5 feet. So dangerously loud.
Would 125 watts be SOTA loud, dynamically 'limitless'? Probably the Soulution would deliver enough that it becomes a personal judgment call as to how loud and how much dynamic extreme you expect the amp to deliver.

My setup is about 10m x 4m x 2.7m so not too far away from yours. I have 95db efficient speakers but avg load is about 7ohm until you dip into the 80hz range when its still a benign 5-6ohms....which means i dont get my amp to double into 4ohms like you do. I run a Gryphon Colosseum which is 160 watts...Our respective math is only about 3db apart. The Gryphon will double down through 0.5 ohms and double again thru 0.5 ohms peak...over 5000watts peak into 0.5ohm load. Which means i am pretty much able to use every bit of volume that the amp can deliver and the dynamics should not collapse. \I never go near the edge of the volume knob.

But i do like it loud. FWIW, I do use a sub...and strangely...i have ended up turning my volume way DOWN as a result of the satisfying deep in your chest hit i can get at low volumes now. If bass is your thing, getting a great sub is probably a much less expensive (and possibly more satisfying) option than a second Solution amp. Though setup will be timeconsuming.

AGain, i did not read the full Roy Gregory article but you might find it useful. I have met him before and found him to be a very astute, forthright audiophile in person.

Just my two cents. Good luck and pls keep us posted.
 

vassago

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Dec 1, 2011
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Hi

I just discovered this forum. As an Avalon fan and user (three pairs over the last 8 years) maybe you could share your experience on the following.

I currently own the Eidolon Diamond, powered by a Soulution 710/721 pair. Source is a DCS Scarlatti full system.

I am curious about the Avalon Time, which would be the logical next step. My room is big (12metres x 4x 3,10) and i would like to have a bit more bass. I would also like to hear what the current generation of Avalon is capable of.
I do not want to change the amplification or source at this stage. Is anyone familiar with the combination of Soulution and Avalon Time? The 125 watts of the 710 are more than enough for the Vision, indeed it sound more powerful than the Spectral 250 (200 watts) it replaced. However, I am not sure if the 710 can handle the 2 woofers of the Time.

Many thanks for any input.


Best
South

Hello

This week I was out and put a couple of Isis up by one of my clients he has Time and ED and now Isis.

He plays on Pass Labs 100.5 in the large room, Time must have more power than Isis ..
Today, I put down my Isis and hours up in my shop they will play on the pass labs 160.5 and XP30 ..

The Time can play in the space you have, one good thing about Avalon is that it has almost never bass problems.
 

south

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2011
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Hi South, and welcome to the Forum!

I am not familiar with the Soulution line (only had a brief experience at last RMAF), and while I know they are really good amps, the 125W specification might be a bit low for the Time (how it handles your Eidolon right now?).... Some Avalon owners use subwoofers as an option to complement the last octave down, but IMHO a proper speaker placement helps a lot in rendering a full frequency response.

Since it will be hard to have them for audition in your room, I would suggest you to contact Luciene Pichette at Avalon Acoustics, he is a very experienced professional and can walk your throu.

Flez, many thanks for your quick reply.
I already spoke to Lucien Pichette, who was very welcoming an useful, as usual. Eidolon Time is an 89db loudspeaker, against the 87 or 88 of the Diamond, so on paper it should work. However, I would like to listen to the Soulution/Time before commiting myself.

On your question, the Soulution works extremely well with the Diamond. It goes lower than any other amp I have heard with the speaker in my room (Nagra valve, Ayre MXR, Spectral 250), and it is better than any of those. The only point where the Spectral betters the 710 is i speed. Although the Soulution is very fast, the Spectral is faster and I have never heard anything as fast as it.
Soulution keeps control over the loudspeaker even when playing loud, something the Spectral could not do (it congested at high levels). The Soulution is extremely neutral without being analytical. Somewhere in the net a reviewer described he Soulution as a "fed mic" amp, and this is a good analogy. The way the sound changes from disc to disc, the way it captures the dimensions of an orchestra and the diference between the instruments is unbelievable. But it is also ruthlessly revealing of any problems with the record. Certainly it is not an euphonic amp, but it does not have the glare that that is usually associated with neutrality. The Spectral could be fatiguing after some time; the Soulution just goes sounding on very musical.

A spec of 125 w does not seem much on paper, but it has very high current (60 A, I believe) and the 710 sounds extremely powerful. Perhaps this comes from the fact that you can play it very loud without stress or fatigue.

Lloydlee21, thanks for your input and comments. I have read Roy Gregory's review and this is one of the reasons why I am interested in the Eidolon Time since he is one of the very few reviewers that I usually agree with.
The Soulution is not as powerful as the Gryphon (which unfortunately I have never heard), but it doubles the output when the impedance halves form 8 to 4 ohms; in 2 ohms it is slightly less powerful.
I usually listen at about 3 metres form the speakers, and like close listening. My interest in the Eidolon Time is not the possibility of playing louder (I do not listen to very loud music) but in a bit more bass. With the Soulution I realized that the limitation of the Diamond in this area is stornger than I previously thought. Although I am not a bass freak (my tastes are classical music, accoustic jazz and a bit of world music, almost always acoustic) I feel that sometimes the lower notes are less present than they should.
There seems to be a tendency for using double woofers: Wilson (for many years), Magico, TAD, BW, and now Avalon are all doing it. I am interested in understanding wht this trend means, in particular coming from a designer that I admire and respect like Neil Patel.

By the way, what are your speakers?

Vassago, I am not familiar with the Pass.I believe the 160.5 is the XA series, class A, right?. I know that the Isis is slightly less demanding than the Time. Again, on paper, if the 100 watts of the Pass play well on the Isis, the 125 of the high current Soulution should be ok for the Time.

Since you worlk with the Avalon line of speakers, and have heard most of them, could you perhaps describe your experience on the "new "generation of Avalon speakers, in particular Isis and Eidolon Time?

Many thanks to you all for your interest and comments.

South
 

Robert

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Nov 10, 2010
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South,

You ask a good question, but unfortunately, no one will probably know the answer. It may work, but there are also risks in trying to pick-up those last few bottom frequencies. You may end-up spending alot of money for an incremental upgrade.

The Soulution is a very respectable amplifier when it comes to power. The high current and doubling output are definitely in your favor.

However, I also believe that bass frequencies benefit the most from a higher power. Plus, your room is large.

Unless you can demo your amplifier with the Time, I would say you have a 50/50 chance of having a good match.

Why not go for the Isis? It is more money, but at least it would be a larger step-up? Just something to consider, although don't let the 89 db rating make you think it would be easier to drive than the Time. For the Isis, I would look for a minimum of 300 watts into 4 ohms, and more would probably be better.

Good luck.
 

flez007

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Or...a pair of subs.....plus, not sure about the rout you have taken as for room treatment, in my case having a professional room treatment service paid every dollar spent, my Ascents are delivering almist all its potential considering my room configuration.
 

vassago

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Flez, many thanks for your quick reply.


Vassago, I am not familiar with the Pass.I believe the 160.5 is the XA series, class A, right?. I know that the Isis is slightly less demanding than the Time. Again, on paper, if the 100 watts of the Pass play well on the Isis, the 125 of the high current Soulution should be ok for the Time.

Since you worlk with the Avalon line of speakers, and have heard most of them, could you perhaps describe your experience on the "new "generation of Avalon speakers, in particular Isis and Eidolon Time?

Many thanks to you all for your interest and comments.

South

Hello

I will do the best I can...

I dont know the sound off this Soulution, The sound off Time is more open and clear in the ED, the Isis is just control and control,, total open sound,, and the the dont need so most power, I play with the 100,5 pass labs on the Time now, and It has enough power for the time and Isis.


The Indra is like Isis, I will say Baby Isis.

The new model from avalon has more bass but still detailed bass and control, also plays the musical at the same time, that a avalon ...som will say avalon is dark in the sound but it not.. it is so detailed but still musical..

I will say find a dealer that have them all so you can hear them, that is the best...
 

vassago

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South,

You ask a good question, but unfortunately, no one will probably know the answer. It may work, but there are also risks in trying to pick-up those last few bottom frequencies. You may end-up spending alot of money for an incremental upgrade.

The Soulution is a very respectable amplifier when it comes to power. The high current and doubling output are definitely in your favor.

However, I also believe that bass frequencies benefit the most from a higher power. Plus, your room is large.

Unless you can demo your amplifier with the Time, I would say you have a 50/50 chance of having a good match.

Why not go for the Isis? It is more money, but at least it would be a larger step-up? Just something to consider, although don't let the 89 db rating make you think it would be easier to drive than the Time. For the Isis, I would look for a minimum of 300 watts into 4 ohms, and more would probably be better.

Good luck.

I will say go for the Isis to, last week I had two demo off the Isis and Time,, and I know with time the will bay the Isis.
 

Bruce B

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I will say go for the Isis to, last week I had two demo off the Isis and Time,, and I know with time the will bay the Isis.

I second this. With that big of room, you will need the extra bass extension of the Isis.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Lloydlee21, thanks for your input and comments. I have read Roy Gregory's review and this is one of the reasons why I am interested in the Eidolon Time since he is one of the very few reviewers that I usually agree with.
The Soulution is not as powerful as the Gryphon (which unfortunately I have never heard), but it doubles the output when the impedance halves form 8 to 4 ohms; in 2 ohms it is slightly less powerful.
I usually listen at about 3 metres form the speakers, and like close listening. My interest in the Eidolon Time is not the possibility of playing louder (I do not listen to very loud music) but in a bit more bass. With the Soulution I realized that the limitation of the Diamond in this area is stornger than I previously thought. Although I am not a bass freak (my tastes are classical music, accoustic jazz and a bit of world music, almost always acoustic) I feel that sometimes the lower notes are less present than they should.
There seems to be a tendency for using double woofers: Wilson (for many years), Magico, TAD, BW, and now Avalon are all doing it. I am interested in understanding wht this trend means, in particular coming from a designer that I admire and respect like Neil Patel.

By the way, what are your speakers?
Many thanks to you all for your interest and comments.

South

Hi South - i run old Wilson X1/Grand Slamms. I run a Velodyne DD18 in parallel, from 41hz down (using a 48db rolloff above 41hz.) The Velodyne set directly on the floor used to be at volume 8 (quite low)...and then upon placing it on an Auralex isolation platform, i ended up finetuning the volume to 32 after the distortion from vibrating the floor was largely taken care of...and thus, i could drive much purer, clean bass to even better integrate with the Wilsons.

At volume 8 (out of 99) on my preamp...or about 80db (dinner-level music)...i can actually feel a nice solid and low gut punch during Nickelback or rock, or even jazz ensembles. Like someone is softly stepping on the kick drum pedal in the room...nice and a lot of fun.
 

south

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Nov 4, 2011
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Hi South - i run old Wilson X1/Grand Slamms. I run a Velodyne DD18 in parallel, from 41hz down (using a 48db rolloff above 41hz.) The Velodyne set directly on the floor used to be at volume 8 (quite low)...and then upon placing it on an Auralex isolation platform, i ended up finetuning the volume to 32 after the distortion from vibrating the floor was largely taken care of...and thus, i could drive much purer, clean bass to even better integrate with the Wilsons.

At volume 8 (out of 99) on my preamp...or about 80db (dinner-level music)...i can actually feel a nice solid and low gut punch during Nickelback or rock, or even jazz ensembles. Like someone is softly stepping on the kick drum pedal in the room...nice and a lot of fun.

Hi Lloydlee,

I am not familiar with the Grand Slamms, but they were the toip model of Wilson a few years ago, right? I am sure they are great. In my experience Wilsons have very good bass. With the subwoofers I am sure you must have a wonderful low end.

I am not at all used to subwoofers. In my limited experience they have always sounded as a further source of issues. The advantages have never compensated the problems that more cables, amps etc., and in particular the positioning of the subs, have brought to the equation. I am afraid they are not an option for me.

The suggestion made by Robert, Bruce and Vassago is interesting. I am sure that my big room would be enough for the Isis, and I am tempted, of course, but they are very expensive and I am afraid that the risk of the Soulution amplifier runnig out of steam is even greater. They are also more bigger and, I guess, more difficult to live with.

Vassago, do you currently have the Isis on your shop in Denmark?


Many thanks to you all for your input.

S.
 

JackD201

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South, there are subwoofers absolutely guaranteed to integrate well with your existing amps and your room size. The catch is that they are part of the Sentinels!

Sorry, the naughty little boy in me couldn't resist this one! :)
 

flez007

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I had several unsuccesful tries with subwoofers, as South said - sacrifices were too high for me to consider them, until I used the DD18 which have a quite sophisticated tunning sofwtare and tools to match the main soeakers curve and integrate in a better way than trying to accomplish this task by ear.

I am not familiar with subwoofers like WB or JL Audio regarding the use or not of this assisted equalization.
 

LL21

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I had several unsuccesful tries with subwoofers, as South said - sacrifices were too high for me to consider them, until I used the DD18 which have a quite sophisticated tunning sofwtare and tools to match the main soeakers curve and integrate in a better way than trying to accomplish this task by ear.

Agree...while i have not tested that many subs (access), i have tried a few, and not found one as precisely adjustable (or easily adjustable) as the DD-18. I fully acknowledge that many, many people have said JL Gothams are far superior (3x the cost and 3x the weight)...and then there's the Thor, and TW Rotator, etc. No doubt, i would love to hear the Gotham and the Thor (and only in a custom built home, the TW)...but for now, i am very pleased and focused on other elements for improvement.
 

Robert

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I suspect you can get some extra mileage from a sub, but Avalon's are champions at holographic imaging from top to bottom when you do it correctly. With the Isis, I clearly hear the double basses to the far right, the kettle drum to the back right, the weight of the violins to the entire left. Choral pieces and organs are full in scale. Off-stage brass and drums (i.e. Mahler) sound uncannily off- stage. I suspect if you are looking for accuracy in weight and positioning for classical music, the crossover with the Isis would be hard to match.

As far as living with large speakers, I was sold on the small footprint for my room and the speaker has presense without overpowering the decor. I have photos on audiogon.

The Time looks great, too. Maybe you can find a demo pair of either to buy if you are in Europe. The Isis would be a 2 step leap, even if you kept the same amp for now. You may wish to explore other amp/preamp possibilities in upcoming years.
 

flez007

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Robert, in my case I left the main speakers running full-range, so the xover worked at its full.
 

south

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Nov 4, 2011
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I suspect you can get some extra mileage from a sub, but Avalon's are champions at holographic imaging from top to bottom when you do it correctly. With the Isis, I clearly hear the double basses to the far right, the kettle drum to the back right, the weight of the violins to the entire left. Choral pieces and organs are full in scale. Off-stage brass and drums (i.e. Mahler) sound uncannily off- stage. I suspect if you are looking for accuracy in weight and positioning for classical music, the crossover with the Isis would be hard to match.

As far as living with large speakers, I was sold on the small footprint for my room and the speaker has presense without overpowering the decor. I have photos on audiogon.

The Time looks great, too. Maybe you can find a demo pair of either to buy if you are in Europe. The Isis would be a 2 step leap, even if you kept the same amp for now. You may wish to explore other amp/preamp possibilities in upcoming years.

Thank, Robert.

I found pictures about your system (I think) on Audiogon. Congratulations, it must be wonderful. I am puzzled as to where you place the Isis. They seem to be on a corner leading two rooms, right? If you prefer I could mail you directly to clarify this.

The fact that you use the big Pass 200 (400 w at 4 ohms) confirms my worries about amplification. But I guess you are right, in a big room like mine the Isis would probably be better than Eidolon Time. Also, there seems to be a certain consensus as to the fact that they are the best loudspeakers tha Avalon currenlty producesI will try to find a place in Europe where I could listen and see both speakers.

Going back to the subwoofer discussion, I do not want to try that alternative because the odds are that the amazing continuity of the Eidolon Diamond, and their capacity to disappear, would certainly be affected. This capacity of disappearing is what, in my experience, sets Avalon apart from, among others, Magico.


Many Thanks
 

Robert

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Nov 10, 2010
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Hi South,

My speakers are in the corner of an open room. No side walls with which to contend. For some reason, it works very well.

IMO, Avalon has the most cohesive drivers in the business. Even after 3 years, I cannot hear a single driver. It spoils you for other speakers. And after 3 years, I do not think about any another speaker.

The Isis does like power. I suspect your Soulution will do them fine, but perhaps you would want to expand the search in the future. I'm a big fan of the solid state amp and tubed preamp route.

I think the Isis can be a tough nut to crack. I know some people have tried them and moved on. I have felt discouraged at times on the journey. With persistence, I have discovered a system combination which makes me reluctant to tempt fate again. Everything makes a difference - power, cables, fuses, connectors.
 

flez007

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IMO, Avalon has the most cohesive drivers in the business. Even after 3 years, I cannot hear a single driver. It spoils you for other speakers.

Just heard some good horns some days back, and I just second your last statement (driver coherence, zero crosstalk) thru almost all Avalon speakers!
 

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