Racks or racket?

MEM

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Hello again:

So I'm almost all set: speakers (Vivid), amps (Spectral), and I'm still working on the source component. But I never thought of racks. Isolation of vibration must be important but credible information is obscure. Racks seem to be a 'puzzle wrapped in an enigma' when it comes to audio components. Auditioning racks is not going to happen. First of all, my wife would not allow such mischief and even I, the maniacal detail-obsessed borderline -OCD person that I am, must draw the line somewhere. Remember, I am not a true audiophile, only a passionate music lover. So I will have to choose a rack based purely on faith, trust, reputation, or some combination thereof. I do not want to 'break the bank', as the bank is under repair from the amplifier/speaker adventure.

So what do you guys and gals think? So far, on paper at least, it seems that I couldn't go wrong with either the Symposium ISIS or the GPA Monaco.
 

jazdoc

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You can add HRS and Silent Running to your list. They probably have better WAF than the Symposium or the GPA. I recently switched from a (discontinued) EquaRack to the SRA Scuttle primarily for aesthetic reasons. I thought the EquaRack was good and was pleasantly surprised by the improvement with the Scuttle.
 

LL21

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Agree on considering HRS...i have listened to systems with the HRS stands and used HRS products myself. Prefer them to the finite elemente products i have used which were good...just not as good. The problem is HRS is very expensive unless second-hand (even then, its expensive!).

Alternatively, you could also have someone make a rack for you...3' thick slabs of birch ply (some prefer solid maple slabs) should be quite good at a fraction of the cost. You could use Finite elemente cerabases on the bottom of the rack...and you could have it piano gloss finished with wood veneers...or however you wanted...for 'aesthetic appeal'...again at probably a tenth the cost. (that's what it cost me.)
 

JackD201

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In my experience the sound of some components change depend on what they are placed on. It is also dependent on the build of the components themselves. When I was running all 300 series levinson gear, they didn't seem to be affected on what they were on. My experience was quite different when I went with other components and all to varying degrees.

Some swear by specific types of acrylic, some by woods, stone, glass, carbon fiber or CLD platforms or footers. Most frankly don't think it worth the trouble.

The hardest thing to come by are folks that have actually compared the most popular brands at home. In my case I've only compared the basic Monaco GPs (Acrylic) with Critical Mass Grand Masters (No longer in production) and have not directly compared what I do use now with anything else except amps on stands vs the floor or the basic homemade flexi racks (also acrylic - don't even know what kind just that they were clear and about an inch or so thick more or less - all I wanted then was stability and flexibility). I'm very satisfied with the results I have but can't really comment on other products out there. Even if I could, sadly it would only really be applicable to the equipment I have.

Wish I could be of more help.
 

ack

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Hello again:

So I'm almost all set: speakers (Vivid), amps (Spectral), and I'm still working on the source component. But I never thought of racks. Isolation of vibration must be important but credible information is obscure. Racks seem to be a 'puzzle wrapped in an enigma' when it comes to audio components. Auditioning racks is not going to happen. First of all, my wife would not allow such mischief and even I, the maniacal detail-obsessed borderline -OCD person that I am, must draw the line somewhere. Remember, I am not a true audiophile, only a passionate music lover. So I will have to choose a rack based purely on faith, trust, reputation, or some combination thereof. I do not want to 'break the bank', as the bank is under repair from the amplifier/speaker adventure.

So what do you guys and gals think? So far, on paper at least, it seems that I couldn't go wrong with either the Symposium ISIS or the GPA Monaco.

The Isis is one of the more beautiful racks available, but I don't know enough about their isolation capabilities - the quotes that I have put them well in the $5K range with isolation. The HRS surely offers extremely effective isolation, but are bulky and a lot more expensive (~$10K); I prefer their individual isolation platforms, which I have tested primarily under my turntable - I would have easily bought them, had it not been for the significant height they added, which made reaching the platter awkward on my rack.

I don't think the Spectrals gain anything from added isolation, but I could be wrong - my experiments didn't offer any improvements. In fact, the amps suffer from something different you can't do anything about: the heatsink fins resonate (ring) in a quiet room (try clapping) due to their length; but I don't know if that harms anything.

You should probably talk to Overture again for ideas... Personally, I go for elegant racks, and for isolation I have built my own stuff (PM for details if interested) since I can't really use the HRS platforms.

PS: You can't beat me on OCD :D
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Just to throw out another rack worth considering: Stillpoints

Here's their website: http://www.stillpoints.us/Stillponts/ESS.html

Paul Wakeen been been a long time industry stalwart and come up with some very nice isolation products. My friend replaced his turntable/VPI stand and amplifier stands with the Stillpoints and raves about them.
 

MEM

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Dec 10, 2011
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Hi Ack,

I am still a beginner with this process so if you see two submissions it's because I thought that one didn't go through. You went straight to the crux of the matter: does Spectral gear benefit from increased isolation? I'm sure that one's home also figures into the equation. So I should probably just get something that pleases the Mrs' eyes yet has been reported to do something worthwhile in a reasonably credible review, then just hope for the best.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Mem

My personal experience is that the better SS gear components don't sound differently with isolation, it is thus my opinion that they don't need it. If we are to offer our opinion here. I have had in my system one of he best isolation devices ever made: The Vibraplane and under the TT (Basis with Graham arm) the differences were beyond substantial. I could actually modify the sound of the TT by dialing more presure under the (active) Vibraplane. It was easy to measure the contribution of the Vibraplane. The subwoofer had to be dialed down with an increase in low end reproduction.. No, I think I heard or resorting to cliches ... It was clear as ..well night and day ...
Put the Vibraplane under the Burmester DAC .. I could strain to hear things but frankly, not much.. actually nothing:) . I wasn't able to know if the Vibraplane made a difference or not ... Others and I could not hear it .. Put it under the Burmester Transport and there again .. I had to strain to hear anything and wasn't sure I heard anything ... As for under SS preamp and amp, it made NO difference IME... My personal expereince. I however, believe that for tubes equipment it might make a difference, haven't tried, don't know but tend to see tubes as intrinsically microphonic.. a belief not anything I have tested throughly but remember that back inthe days when I was using tubes , I could hear it in my speakers when ehn I tapped the tubes with a pencil ... Other with more tube knwoledge will chime in but my experience with various tubes gear and tubes brand was that most were to a degree or another ... microphonic.

Which brings me back to the Racks .. If you have a TT go for it .. else my opinion is for the price of these racks y, if you don't have,yet room treatment of any nature, Acoustic Room treatment will bring you much better results ... If you already have room treatment or this is not feasible because of settings ... I would suggest looking into acquiring two or more subwoofers... The difference brought in by the (judicious) addition of more subwoofers in any system cannot be overstated. More than 2 if possible .. I am talking about 2-ch here not HT ;)
 

MEM

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Dec 10, 2011
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Myles,

Thanks for the tip... I'll definitely take a look at Stillpoints also.

MEM
 

MEM

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Dec 10, 2011
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Hey Frantz,

Lots of good information... I do have a turntable, an ancient Thorens, which has been effectively moth-balled for several years but I was thinking about pulling it out again since I have some great LPs. Since a turntable has major moving parts, it would follow that isolation should make a substantial difference.

I bet I'll need acoustic treatment because the room has an unusual shape and virtually all hard surfaces- hardwood flooring, bookshelves, etc. I was already thinking about adding a subwoofer in the future, primarily because low-frequency response is the relative weakness of my speakers. I guess my dealer should be able to help me with such a project.
 

ack

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MylesBAstor

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Mem

My personal experience is that the better SS gear components don't sound differently with isolation, it is thus my opinion that they don't need it. If we are to offer our opinion here. I have had in my system one of he best isolation devices ever made: The Vibraplane and under the TT (Basis with Graham arm) the differences were beyond substantial. I could actually modify the sound of the TT by dialing more presure under the (active) Vibraplane. It was easy to measure the contribution of the Vibraplane. The subwoofer had to be dialed down with an increase in low end reproduction.. No, I think I heard or resorting to cliches ... It was clear as ..well night and day ...
Put the Vibraplane under the Burmester DAC .. I could strain to hear things but frankly, not much.. actually nothing:) . I wasn't able to know if the Vibraplane made a difference or not ... Others and I could not hear it .. Put it under the Burmester Transport and there again .. I had to strain to hear anything and wasn't sure I heard anything ... As for under SS preamp and amp, it made NO difference IME... My personal expereince. I however, believe that for tubes equipment it might make a difference, haven't tried, don't know but tend to see tubes as intrinsically microphonic.. a belief not anything I have tested throughly but remember that back inthe days when I was using tubes , I could hear it in my speakers when ehn I tapped the tubes with a pencil ... Other with more tube knwoledge will chime in but my experience with various tubes gear and tubes brand was that most were to a degree or another ... microphonic.

Which brings me back to the Racks .. If you have a TT go for it .. else my opinion is for the price of these racks y, if you don't have,yet room treatment of any nature, Acoustic Room treatment will bring you much better results ... If you already have room treatment or this is not feasible because of settings ... I would suggest looking into acquiring two or more subwoofers... The difference brought in by the (judicious) addition of more subwoofers in any system cannot be overstated. More than 2 if possible .. I am talking about 2-ch here not HT ;)

Not surprisingly, we're on opposite ends of the spectrum here :) I don't know what solid-state amps you experimented with Frantz but all the ss amps I've had around--and among them were products from Rowland and Levinson--were actually more sensitive than even tube amplifiers to where and what they were placed upon :)

And it's just not tubes that are sensitive to the effects of vibrations; capacitors are too (Dave Wilson talked about his years ago). That's why many top speakers have their xovers located outside the cabinet. Perhaps Gary can speak more this effect.
 

FrantzM

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Happy Holiday Myles

SO we are... I usually don't go with what someone says regardless of the notoriety of the person. I usually like to see some more ...proofs. I sincerely can't see how SS would more sensitive than tubes in this regard .. They SS have fewer things sensible to vibration I would suppose... Tubes haves the pesky grids ... Its modualtion through vinration can be easily shown to change the flow of electrons passing through it .SS are well solid .. both have capacitors and resistors and inductances ... Under the same condition I would guess tubes would fare worse under vibrations than SS wouldn't you think?
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Happy Holiday Myles

SO we are... I usually don't go with what someone says regardless of the notoriety of the person. I usually like to see some more ...proofs. I sincerely can't see how SS would more sensitive than tubes in this regard .. They SS have fewer things sensible to vibration I would suppose... Tubes haves the pesky grids ... Its modualtion through vinration can be easily shown to change the flow of electrons passing through it .SS are well solid .. both have capacitors and resistors and inductances ... Under the same condition I would guess tubes would fare worse under vibrations than SS wouldn't you think?

That was my initial assumption too Frantz but that hypothesis just didn't pan out in the listening tests.

It's akin to determining the hierarchy of where vibration control works the best in one's system. Having a tube phono section, one would assume that this piece would exhibit the most improvement. Not so. Of all the electronics in the audio chain, found the preamp (with only two tubes -- but 24.5 dB of gain), followed by the amplifiers, to exhibit the greatest improvement with the Silent Running Audio platforms. In fact, I couldn't believe not only the improvement in transparency at the back of the stage (for instance find a good drum set on a jazz recording or some of the great Decca operas and listen to the voices)--but the huge increase in dynamic range. Now don't ask me to explain, all I can do is somewhat controlled tests going back and forth with and without platforms using a few reference LPs.
 

garylkoh

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I don't think that you can generalize that SS gear is less susceptible to "rack sound" than Tube gear. The Burmester that Frantz mentioned are very well designed, and from what I've seen of the construction of Burmester, the engineers took the design of the feet into consideration. Hence, I'm not surprised that Frantz couldn't hear a difference with the Vibraplane under Burmester gear. Other solid state gear are extremely susceptible to rack sound - even those that purport to have "well designed feet" like Esoteric. Some tube gear I've encountered are less susceptible to rack sound than others - BAT and CJ come to mind.

Capacitors are extremely sensitive to the effects of vibrations.... and they sound different hung upside down. That's why some SS gear with a great number of small capacitors (phono preamps come to mind) sound very different when they are placed upside down.

The problem with racks is that they have to be auditioned in context with the equipment that is placed in them. It's like cars and suspensions. You can't take the suspension off a Ferrari and install it on an Aston Martin. This problem fuels the entire audiophile after-market cone/footer/tweak market.

You may have noticed that I used the term "rack sound". I hate racks - all the ones I've tried have a "signature sound".
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Has anyone ever been able to measure a performance difference in a solid state electronic component sitting on an isolation rack vs anything else?

Tim
 

fas42

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Has anyone ever been able to measure a performance difference in a solid state electronic component sitting on an isolation rack vs anything else?

Tim
Conventional measurements won't pick it up easily because they typically look at how far down distortion elements are from full strength signals. Now, if they changed their measurement strategies and looked at what happened to a mixture of low level signals while some interference was being "injected" they would certainly see things happening. But this is harder, and might show up the equipment badly, so we won't go there, do we all agree, hmmm ...

Frank
 

mep

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Only the Nordost/Vertex folks, but this board debunked those findings because they used a computer soundcard to measure.

Tricky cable companies trying to fool us...
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Conventional measurements won't pick it up easily because they typically look at how far down distortion elements are from full strength signals. Now, if they changed their measurement strategies and looked at what happened to a mixture of low level signals while some interference was being "injected" they would certainly see things happening. But this is harder, and might show up the equipment badly, so we won't go there, do we all agree, hmmm ...

Frank

Yes, but it would show the isolation racks in a positive light if audible levels were measured. It would provide evidence of long held, unsupported claims that I'm sure would be very useful.

ON EDIT: Actually, I would expect the hardware manufacturers to measure and show the results as well, if these effects are audible. A manufacturer who has built a chassis and foot system that solves the problem and out performs other amps as a result, could present it as a competitive advantage. And in fact, such manufacturers often do make such an argument. But I don't ever recall them showing measurements of audible effect on the amp's performance. Not saying it isn't so, just wondering why it isn't shown.

Tim
 
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