Magico Q7

phillipK

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Oct 23, 2010
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http://www.stereophile.com/content/mighty-magico-q7
JA did not run away for the room either, and giving the fact that he usually keeps the best for last, he probably liked it quite a bit (I bet he heard the same piece Marty heard). I would conclude that having so many different, opposite reactions/descriptions to Magico speakers is simply a testimony to how good these speakers really are. I do know however, that my conclusion will not change any minds here, or anywhere else. Why do we bother:rolleyes:
 

Elliot G.

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Jul 22, 2010
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www.bendingwaveusa.com
http://www.stereophile.com/content/mighty-magico-q7
JA did not run away for the room either, and giving the fact that he usually keeps the best for last, he probably liked it quite a bit (I bet he heard the same piece Marty heard). I would conclude that having so many different, opposite reactions/descriptions to Magico speakers is simply a testimony to how good these speakers really are. I do know however, that my conclusion will not change any minds here, or anywhere else. Why do we bother:rolleyes:

You think that the wide difference of opinions illustrates how good they are? Could you please explain
 

Robert

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Nov 10, 2010
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You think that the wide difference of opinions illustrates how good they are? Could you please explain

I could only interpret that the sheer awesomeness and realization that you will never afford them produces an intense hatred, as a subconscious defense mechanism. Ergo, you hate them so much, you must love them. So, those who love them, love them. Those who hate them, love them. Thou doth protest too much...
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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When I heard the Q3's and the Q5's at Newport, I noticed an interesting thing with many of the other listeners. Several commented that the sound was very good BUT not for the price. However, after more time went by, I was beginning to hear comments from these same people that the sound really wasn't that good after all. IMHO, the Magico's sounded excellent at the show and in fact, the Q3 room was the best sounding to me at that show. I do agree that it is more difficult to separate price and performance as the price edges ever higher, but if one is truly being honest with oneself, then it should be irrelevant as to one's thoughts on performance.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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The only Magico speakers I have ever heard are the Q1s at the RMAF. I have to say (and I have said) I was very impressed with their sound quality. Now mind you I wasn't $24K impressed, but impressed nonetheless.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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I could only interpret that the sheer awesomeness and realization that you will never afford them produces an intense hatred, as a subconscious defense mechanism. Ergo, you hate them so much, you must love them. So, those who love them, love them. Those who hate them, love them. Thou doth protest too much...

Uh Robert, do you have first hand knowledge of Elliot's financial situation or is this a leap of faith converted into a slam?
 

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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As I have followed the comments on this thread, I am reminded of a conclusion that I frequently come to eventually. TASTE IS PERSONAL. Taste is colored by many parameters that vary from person to person. What I think is right really only matters to me.

What matters to me with audio is what transports me to a better place than the reality of where I actually am. Something that makes something I know very well sound less good is not worth it to me regardless of price and especially at $165K. I am not saying that the Q7 did not have some very revealing aspects, BUT overall it sounded like a speaker not life. Link that type of sound with all of the smoke, mirror and arrogance of the demo and all I can say is that I cannot in good conscience recommend this speaker to anyone. There are many more accurate speakers for much less money if cost is no object. If cost is an object and it is for just about all of us, then the value proposition for speakers falls apart around $20k new and $10 K used.

For many of the evaluations described by Marty or Steve Williams, I was by their sides and fully concur with their assessments, although I am much more troubled by the BS Factor that has become such a central factor in high end audio.

Audio has become like luxury cars. It is more about the hood ornament than how good the car actually is for the money.
 

phillipK

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Oct 23, 2010
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>>You think that the wide difference of opinions illustrates how good they are? Could you please explain

It is obviously not about the sound right? Otherwise how would you explain the controversy? Look at Mobiusman, he is truly upset, as if it is personal and Magico owed him some sort of a treatment he never got. Some couldn't "run" fast enough and some think it is the absolute best (Although, you can argue that the controversy is mainly a fiction of internet forums since the world media and I suspect real buyers seems to be more united in their opinion of Magico). So I say, these speakers move out of the way just enough to be whatever you wish them to be, depending on your psychic. What can be better than that?
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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If I may add somethin' else here.

=> I believe that the best loudspeaker's enclosure is no enclosure.
Or if it has to have one, it better be 'sound invisible'. :b

You know what I'm sayin' ...
 

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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Elliot, of course I would not say that the flattest sounding speaker would be the “best” or more relevant, my preferred speaker. There are several lengthy reasons for this, but to discuss these is to miss the point of my remark. What I am saying is that frequency response, more than just about any other single physical parameter, is key in determining whether a speaker sounds pleasing to me. Furthermore, I would argue that is true not just for me, but to the majority of listeners. A landmark paper by Henning Moller of B&K Instruments, Inc., that was presented at the Copenhagen AES in 1974, sheds some very insightful light on the preferred frequency response of loudspeaker systems at the listening position by experienced listeners. The entire paper is presented here:

http://www.bksv.com/doc/17-197.pdf

One key point, and one that I seem to agree with, is that a flat frequency response is not the most commonly preferred response. Rather a very slight attenuation from low to high frequencies is what sounded best. Actually to be accurate, they said, “When music is recorded under far-field conditions, it will contain a suitable mixture of direct and reflected sound, and the curve ought to be absolutely flat in that case.” “However, since most recordings are made as a combination of near-field and far-field information, the curve should boost a little at low frequencies and roll off a little at high frequencies. A suitably shaped curve is shown in Fig.5.”

For those that don’t want to read the entire article, which is a beautiful and serious early study of human psychoacoustics as it applies to listening to loudspeakers, the key figure being discussed can be found here.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?723-Target-Curves

Does this mean the B&K curve is “right’ and all others are “wrong”. Of course not. It’s just a preference, and it is one that I have found, in general, to agree with. There are surely others who find such a frequency response curve equally compelling. For example, Jason Bloom of Apogee sought to have his speakers register at the listening position with a basically flat curve from 100-10K that contained a slight top end roll off above 10K, and a 2-4 dB bump from 30-80 Hz (the so called “Bloom Bump”). This then, roughly approximates the B&K curve.

Most of the basis of my preference comes from experimenting for many years with DSP in my system. It is certainly possible that with other components besides the ones I currently use, I might have slightly different preferences. But I think its fair to say that based on my experience I find the B&K response at the listening position one that I generally prefer. Is the frequency response alone the basis of a singular preference? Most likely it is not. But if you had to pick one, certainly frequency response, perhaps followed closely by distortion, are the leading two physical parameters that count a great deal towards determining if speakers sound good, at least to me.

As far as REG’s sound room, I can’t speak to that. I do however find him to be someone who speaks for the most part with a good deal of common sense on matters audio, although he and I are not without some sonic disagreements. For example, he loves Harbeth 40.1 loudspeakers and while I find them pleasant, I am not wild about them. I on the other hand, like the sound of Maggie 1.7 and 3.7s yet he has little to say about these that may be interpreted as high praise. Is this due strictly to differences of frequency response? Probably not. So be it.

If I interpret your challenge correctly, I do not in fact, think speakers of different design would necessarily sound the same if they had the identical frequency response (whether flat of “B&K”). Most importnatly, as we have said, distortion would be a physical parameter that would also come in to play, as would a host of other things (dynamics, S/N, timing and phase angle of the drivers, radiation patterns (as Jeff Fritz correctly notes), power distribution etc.). But I think it’s fair to say this. Speakers with similar frequency responses are likely to be judged similarly as ones that are sonically pleasing, or not. Show me something with a “B&K type” response at the listening position, and there’s is a good chance I will have a favorable reaction. Show me something that is flat from 20-20K and my sense is that I probably will have some objection to the sound based on frequency response because the top end might sound too hot. Again for me, an exaggerated top end or one that is not gently rolled off is a common flaw in many systems that leaves me nonplussed as it does others such as REG, and as I suspect, many audiophiles. All of which is to say very little other than this is obviously an issue of personal preferences. I think Russ summarized that equally well in post #128.
 
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phillipK

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Oct 23, 2010
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Rather simplistic and outdated. With typical room gain, most loudspeakers, with even semi "proper" design elements will fit that bill. There is much more to a good speaker then a "gentle" on-axis slope.
 

marty

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Sorry Phillip, but I respectfully disagree. I must necessarily wonder what data you can cite to support your view? May I ask a simple question? Have you ever taken a real room response of any system at the listening position? If so, may I learn what equipment you used and on what speakers was the frequency analysis performed? Your claim that "most speakers will fit that bill" requires substantive data to support such a claim. The fact is Phillip, it is unfortunate that most speakers, even well designed ones, do not yield frequency responses that are either flat, or obey anything close to a B&K curve in the real world. You only need look at the NRC responses of many of our contemporary speakers to appreciate that most cannot accomplish this even in controlled listening environments.
http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html
Yet you manage to dismiss this data with the wave of your hand without citing any supporting data. I welcome your discourse, opinion and discussion. But really, please bring some data to the table when you make such outrageous claims.
 
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Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
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Sorry Phillip, but I respectfully disagree. I must necessarily wonder what data you can cite to support your view? May I ask a simple question? Have you ever taken a real room response of any system at the listening position? If so, may I learn what equipment you used and on what speakers was =the frequency analysis performed? Your claim that "most speakers will fit that bill" requires substantive data to support such a claim. The fact is Phillip, it is unfortunate that most speakers, even well designed ones, do not yield frequency responses that are either flat, or obey anything close to a B&K curve in the real world. You only need look at the NRC responses of many of our contemporary speakers to appreciate that most cannot accomplish this even in controlled listening environments.
http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html
Yet you manage to dismiss this data with the wave of your hand without citing any supporting data. I welcome your discourse, opinion and discussion. But really, please bring some data to the table when you make such outrageous claims.

I'll give some input on this, Marty. FYI: I have measured over 25 speakers in my room over past number of years. I also know something about the measurements link you posted.

First, an anechoically flat speaker will in an average room have a general left-to-right downward-sloping FR. Simply put, the room gain on the low end and the absorptive nature of most rooms with carpet and furnishings will cause this. I agree that this is desirable.

You do imply that most speakers do not achieve flat response in the chamber, and on this I would agree. But there are two types of FR curve, if I may broadly group what you see in two camps: controlled FR and uncontrolled FR. The controlled FR group includes speakers that have contoured FRs (common these days is a "smile curve" with a depression in the midband, but also the curve you state) that correlate with testing that some companies conduct. The second group simply does not have the engineering expertise to really nail FR – these are not great speakers, IMO.

Since this is a Magico thread, I will point you to the only Magico we've measured, the V2. It has very controlled and basically flat FR, which obviously correlates with excellent engineering. They are not alone in this, of course, with excellent measurements attained by PSB, Revel, Thiel, and others in our group.

What PhilipK might be alluding to is that, once basic good FR is accomplished, the best companies are trying to go beyond this by addressing things such as cone resonances, cabinet reflections, etc. Once you start seeing the little squiggles going away, you know these items are getting attention. The Magico fits that bill and I would imagine the Q speakers do so to a greater degree.

What I think gets missed sometimes when talking about FR – even on this forum – is whether you are discussing anechoic measurements or in-room. These are very different, obviously, and the goals for each are quite different as well.
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
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Marty, or anyone else that likes scavenger hunts . . .

There are two speakers in our measurements that show the designers did not know simple baffle-step compensation (loudspeaker design 101). These are, uh, examples of companies that really do not know what they are doing. Uncontrolled FR+ . . .

No, I will not reveal them here. No need to start a fight if someone owns them. You'll know it when you see it. (If you do not know what this is, a quick Google search: http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm)

Jeff
 

marty

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Jeff, I think we are mostly in agreement. I certainly can appreciate that you have indeed measured a speaker response or two! And I'm glad you agree that NRC measurements aren't often uniform and linear the way we have discussed. My point is that if speakers can't achieve a relatively flat response in ideal conditions, imagine how tough it is in the real world? And that brings us back to the issue of EQ. I advocate it's basically under-used by audiophiles and when done judiciously, can have dramatic beneficial effects. But again, you already know this if I judge correctly from your many previous posts and speaker reviews.

Now, returning to the Magico Q7, I appreciate that the manufacturer wishes to voice his speaker as he sees fit. But everyone knows that frequency response is room dependent. So if the Q7 has a bit too much top end for me, would it be too much to ask for a simple control to attenuate the top end above 10K ever so slightly if might make for the best match for me room? For 165K, is that too much to ask? . We already know there are component values that are in the circuit to tailor the response to factory preferences. Why not give me a single switch that allows say, a minimally different RC combo for the tweeter, to tailor the response ever so slightly? If my room is a bit brighter than ideal, wouldn't it be nice if I could roll off the top end just a hair? Other manufacturers certainly do that (i.e. Vandersteen). My dismay about Magico is that it appears the manufacturer has a certain arrogance to believe that my environment doesn't deserve such an option. In my view it might even make the Q7, "one for the great ones" for me since, as I said initially, there is certainly a lot to like about them. I do not mean to criticize Magico exclusively here, but its just one example that I would cite to support the judicious use of EQ. To me, it would be a welcome feature on many speakers, regardless of price.
 
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MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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A $165,000 pair of loudspeakers should have the very best Auto Room EQ & Acoustic Calibration system internally integrated & included!

That's assuming the cure isn't worse than the disease.
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
435
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Jeff, I think we are mostly in agreement. I certainly can appreciate that you have indeed measured a speaker response or two! And I'm glad you agree that NRC measurements aren't often uniform and linear the way we have discussed. My point is that if speakers can't achieve a relatively flat response in ideal conditions, imagine how tough it is in the real world? And that brings us back to the issue of EQ. I advocate it's basically under-used by audiophiles and when done judiciously, can have dramatic beneficial effects. But again, you already know this if I judge correctly from your many previous posts and speaker reviews.

Now, returning to the Magico Q7, I appreciate that the manufacturer wishes to voice his speaker as he sees fit. But everyone knows that frequency response is room dependent. So if the Q7 has a bit too much top end for me, would it be too much to ask for a simple control to attenuate the top end above 10K ever so slightly if might make for the best match for me room? For 165K, is that too much to ask? . We already know there are component values that are in the circuit to tailor the response to factory preferences. Why not give me a single switch that allows say, a minimally different RC combo for the tweeter, to tailor the response ever so slightly? If my room is a bit brighter than ideal, wouldn't it be nice if I could roll off the top end just a hair? Other manufacturers certainly do that (i.e. Vandersteen). My dismay about Magico is that it appears the manufacturer has a certain arrogance to believe that my environment doesn't deserve such an option. In my view it might even make the Q7, "one for the great ones" for me since, as I said initially, there is certainly a lot to like about them. I do not mean to criticize Magico exclusively here, but its just one example that I would cite to support the judicious use of EQ. To me, it would be a welcome feature on many speakers, regardless of price.

I think we're getting somewhere! I do think that EQ can be highly beneficial, particularly in the bass (active electronic EQ). I do prefer, when possible, passive room treatment, when it can be enough to address the problem. For instance, adding more absorption or diffusion to side walls and adjusting toe-in/out of the loudspeaker can easily tailor high-frequency performance to suit most tastes. If you have controlled off-axis dispersion this should not even affect tonal balance in the mids.

Back to Magico, as you said. I remember when they were finalizing the Q7 and I brought up whether it could be done in a two-piece design and they said "absolutely not." Why? They do not believe in adding any extra wiring junctions as they believe it harms the signal (so you'll never see a stackable design with bunches of binding posts scattered throughout to connect them). My speculation is that I doubt they would add a "feature" that they felt would compromise the sonic integrity of the system when it's not needed, whereas we both know there are external solutions to this that can be used when it is needed.

More fundamental to my point in my previous post is that my first requirement (and I think you'd agree on this) is that the basic loudspeaker should be engineered to a very high level. Then there are things that can be done to address room issues, etc. After all, you wouldn’t want to try to EQ that pesky baffle-step compensation. That's kind of like performing a medical operation in your garage.
 

marty

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A $165,000 pair of loudspeakers should have the very best Auto Room EQ & Acoustic Calibration system internally integrated & included!

I absolutely agree w Bob. For $165K, EQ should be included!. But the caveat Myles raised is also true. I think the reason many audiophiles still think EQ can be a bad thing is that most of us have had experiences with the EQ gear of yesteryear that was just horrible. The modern era however offers a very different menu of choices, both analogue and digital, most of which are far less onerous than anything we could have dreamed of years ago. I appreciate that on its own, the best sounding device is no device, but in a system, a good transparent EQ device can be a big plus. I think its sadly underutilized. I also agree fully with Jeff that for the top end, room treatment can be very helpful. But sometimes its just not enough. My room has absorptive surfaces on every wall, but I still think I could use EQ to tame a tweeter or two because the room treatment does less for the near-field signal than I'd like. And of course, to get the overall response to be tightly B&K-ish, DSP certainly has appeal to me.
 
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