Magico Q7

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Thank you Steve. Does this one have the "rumble in the jungle" bass that the Q5 misses? Does it drive away any doubt of adding a sub? Does it breathe in the "nether regions":p ;) ?

Well if listening to Arnold's Tam O'Shanter from RR is an indication, yes :) The Q7 doesn't need a subwoofer; it needs a real room built for it!
 

nirodha

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Aug 11, 2010
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Myles and I were together yesterday at Magico and he and I shared the same feelings. It is scary good

As it should be for that price but hey..this is "what's best forum" and if Magico has built the non plus ultra speaker, this listener really (!!!) wants to hear it :) Hope it comes to Holland soon.
 

Elliot G.

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Guys the deals reviewers get is far greater than 50 or 60 percent. o have a reviewer actually buy your product is a very good endorsement. THe deals are at manufacturing cost. Thsi varies from product to product. Lets just say its really low :)
The reason that the escalation continues is multi faceted. First there is a lot of ego involved with making these megaspeakers. Secondly there is a lot of money that is made just selling demo's to dealers and distributors of these products. Do the math on a new Wilson, Focal, Magico< etc.etc. They may sell 25-100 pairs of these things depending on the dealer base aqnd distributio companies. This is a guaranteed income stream.with large companies at lower ranges this can reach into the tens of millions of dollars every couple of years. If they did not get a return they would not make them. I know there are a lot of garage companies trying to get recognition but the real players are not stupid.
Wilson,Magico, Magnepan, Focal, B&W and others have a built in market for the newest and greatest they make.
 

MylesBAstor

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Guys the deals reviewers get is far greater than 50 or 60 percent. o have a reviewer actually buy your product is a very good endorsement. THe deals are at manufacturing cost. Thsi varies from product to product. Lets just say its really low :)
The reason that the escalation continues is multi faceted. First there is a lot of ego involved with making these megaspeakers. Secondly there is a lot of money that is made just selling demo's to dealers and distributors of these products. Do the math on a new Wilson, Focal, Magico< etc.etc. They may sell 25-100 pairs of these things depending on the dealer base aqnd distributio companies. This is a guaranteed income stream.with large companies at lower ranges this can reach into the tens of millions of dollars every couple of years. If they did not get a return they would not make them. I know there are a lot of garage companies trying to get recognition but the real players are not stupid.
Wilson,Magico, Magnepan, Focal, B&W and others have a built in market for the newest and greatest they make.

Really Elliot? Sorry, I've been a reviewer for 25 years and the largest accommodation price was 60 pct off -- and only one company. The industry norm is 50% and as low as 30% off. Now one exception might be on equipment that has been used at a show and can't be resold as new.

What would you suggest? Reviewers buy thru a store so the store can make money-since it's not going back to the manufacturerer? Or pay list from the manufacturer so they can make 2x the profit? And the gear is used and can't be properly sold as new so the price is reduced to begin with.
 

Elliot G.

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Miles I dont care what they sell it for. I really dont. If you want it and they want to sell it to you thats fine and you should get the best price you can. If you took what I said as a negative response it was not. Its just business. I know for a fact that items sold within the industry are traded and sold for very low prices. Who cares? Not me. The points about selling dealer and distributor demos is true as well. In this case demo's are usually in the ranges you discussed with sometimes terms as well. Most sales accomodations are as you said, I dont dispute that however there are occasions that what I said is also true.
I meant no disrespect nor foul play towards anyone.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Miles I dont care what they sell it for. I really dont. If you want it and they want to sell it to you thats fine and you should get the best price you can. If you took what I said as a negative response it was not. Its just business. I know for a fact that items sold within the industry are traded and sold for very low prices. Who cares? Not me. The points about selling dealer and distributor demos is true as well. In this case demo's are usually in the ranges you discussed with sometimes terms as well. Most sales accomodations are as you said, I dont dispute that however there are occasions that what I said is also true.
I meant no disrespect nor foul play towards anyone.

Yes nowadays a purchase comes with terms from most major high-end companies. For instance, had to sign a paper that couldn't sell my speakers for a year.
 

andromedaaudio

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Jan 23, 2011
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I dont nesceserilly agree with you on magico being emotionally dead , i heard some V3 s with zanden and that sounded very good i have not heard the alu housings , but you sure have the gift of writing , i read the piece with great pleasure concerning audio happiness and/or getting lost in tecnical talk.
Randall, you got your knickers in such a super tight twist that I feel your pain - attacking me personally, calling me hateful, etc. Don’t worry, I won’t attack you personally or call you names. But I will do my best to explain a few things to you.

The way we define a problem or frame a question shapes how we and our fellow hobbyists understand things, answer threads, and act. The audio media elites seem to lecture us that emotional response to gear is meaningless, worthless, and that it doesn't matter. Correct imaging and soundstage and transparency are paramount. All these lackey reviewers seem to be in love with Magico, calling them 'best', but missing the big picture – Magico speakers lack to convey the emotion of a musical performance. I just care about good sound for its own sake because gear that sounds like music makes my life a bit better. I'm not hating on Magico at all. I’m just reframing the issue. I’m just calling a spade a spade. This is a completely different value proposition than what is commonly written about in the main stream, elite audio press. I could care less about magico. I don’t care if they thrive or go out if business. In a free society, if it’s not them, it will be Revel or Tad or dCS or Bryston or Esoteric or someone new that will come along to do the same emotionally-dead thing they do. There is a market for that and someone will step up fill that market niche. Yet despite their emotionally challenged presentation, Magico is sucking up too much air. And their main PR guy, Valin, happens to be in a position of great power and influence. His TAS bosses (Martin, Harley) have abdicated their leadership posts, so he is free to work for his interests. And he sure is good at that. He keeps the Magico speakers as long as he wants. Wolf flies him out to San Fran, wines him, dines him, puts him up, etc. In return, he is great at bringing up Magico at any chance he gets. He is a very good hit man and he has gotten really aggressive lately - taking the air out of the comparably priced Nola's product launch at RMAF (needs a cabinet redesign, per his blog). He has also given the much more real sounding Scaenas a very lukewarm review recently. Scaena is “too big for his room”, while the huge Magicos are just fine, thanks to the tuning forks in his room. Well, Scaena phones were definitely not be ringing as much as they should have with new speaker orders this holiday season. Neither did Nola’s. What the Magico lackeys don’t tell you though, Randall, while I do, is that Magico lacks a soul while Nola and Scaena light the human spirit on fire.

Let me also address some of your other points, Randall… First, let me clue you in on some facts of life. Not all babies are cute. Some cook great tasting meatloaf, but when others cook meatloaf, it tastes like sawdust. Most dinner guests are too polite to tell you the unvarnished truth. “How's the meatloaf?” “Fine”, they say. “Delicious” if they care about you or think it will make you happy. How many people volunteer they are having a lousy day? It’s human nature to put a bright face on a crappy situation. But the “Fine” response is a joke. There's no value in it. Fine is a 4 letter word. So it's useless to ask most people what they think. Most are too gutless to tell you what they really think. I, on the other hand, have no problems telling folks what I think.

And you also blame the internet for my comments, Randall. Yes, Randall , it is the Internet! It allows us to bring diverse points of view together. On the one hand you love magico for its technological advancement, yet you are upset by another technical marvel, the internet. This comment about the internet just reeks of the arrogance of the main stream audio media. You had no problem saying that Wilson sucks in the other thread. Go ahead, disparage bloggers and online critics. Thanks to the net, voices like mine can counterbalance the propaganda from the audio media elites. I happen to have a lot of experience with gear and a lot of self confidence behind my opinions. With voices like mine, definitions of good sound and bad sound have become democratized, and myths have been busted. And yes, I feel more qualified to judge the sound than a salesman or marketing rep for magico who is masquerading as a “neutral reviewer”. I'm a critic, but unlike you or your colleagues in the elite media, I am not beholden to anyone. I am not looking for Wolf to send me free speakers, buy my advertising, fly me out to his place and take me to expensive San Francisco restaurants, etc. So I feel free to speak my mind.

And what's with the personal attacks, Randall? It's my hobby just as much as it’s your hobby. And if I feel like reacting to something I see, I will not hesitate. Isn't this the purpose of this discussion forum? The question is why are you acting like a PR man rather than a content creator and an analyst? Just a small hint - Valin and others will get the q7 to rave about way before you will. This is not a personal attack. It’s just reality, based on a simple concept of “status” from sociology and economics of who can sell more gear for Wolf.

And of course there is subjectivity, Randall… One man’s dream house is another man’s eyesore; ones mans beautiful prairie garden is another man’s patch of weeds. Yes, there is no consensus on one way to obtain pleasure. Beauty begins with a universal human need, buts manifests itself heterogeneously, subjectively, and is constantly changing. Our response to beauty is hard wired and governed by circuits in the brain. This differs from individual to individual, of course. But the main stream reviewers, it seems to me, have forgotten what the audio hobby is about. They are like plastic surgeons at a gentleman’s club - looking for imperfections rather than letting go of their left brain and just enjoying the view. So they push us toward functional accuracy and scientific perfection, calling these emotionally dead products like magico ‘best’, while ignoring the fact that for those of us who really love music, the purpose of the gear is to make life enjoyable and that emotional response to music dictates the speaker choice. Of course, what most audio reviewers who are calling Magico “best” and “product of the year”, “speaker of the year” neglect to mention that it's best on meeting audiophile terminology, while lacking a soul. Yet many of the audio media elites are pushing this Magico drek on us with constant speaker / product of the year awards and Best pronouncements.

But in reality Magico is not ‘Best’ at all...Great speakers effect human beings in ways that are immediate, perceptual, and emotional. When people are able to concentrate wholeheartedly on an activity, they lose awareness of peripheral problems and distractions. The state of complete absorption is called Flow by psychologists. During Flow, our experience of time and self is altered. We become lost in the most positive of senses. Psychology studies show that people are most happy in a state of Flow. So I look for gear that is designed to make that optimal experience easier to achieve. Magico, on the other hand, tells and instructs rather than delights. It's a cognitive and analytical experience while listening to the Magico speaker, rather than complete absorption during the experience followed by the analytical reflection after the experience. Since it seems like we are operating on different planes of audio gear experiences, let me provide you with another analogy: to me and other music lovers, listening to a Magico is kind of like watching an engrossing movie, and just as you are being be drawn in, some jerk is constantly playing with the movie projector. In essence, magico is emotionally dead to someone who cares less about audiophilia, but loves music.


You and Magico’s supporters in the elite audio media seem to get excited about wolf's stiffness of enclosure and his crossovers, while I get excited about a speakers ability to convey emotions. To each his own! You can take this most expensive magico and compare it to a $35 k Sonus Faber and the SF will win. It will better magico not because of a supposedly stiff material and super-duper resolution, but because it creates an enjoyable and pleasurable experience. Gear like that brings music lovers joy. In comparison, magico is emotionally dead.

Just read how dull and dispassionate valin's reviews have gotten in the last few years. The reason is simple. Unless you are more into physics than the art of music, how can you get excited about transparency, the crossover, and the size and soundstage, while ignoring the musical whole? Valin’s dull and dispassionate reviews reflect what he is hearing in Magico. Instead, if you don’t know what I am talking about, read Bruninger's recent MBL review in TAS for a nice contrast of what the audio hobby is about for music lovers.

So Randall, many people in this hobby work 60 hours + per week, have families with small kids and busy lives. When they have a chance to turn on their system for 60 minutes a day, they would love to get lost in the music and forget about the gear – and forget about everything else in their life. I hope I am making clear that for many of us, this hobby should bring heightened meaning and pleasure to the substance if our lives, or there is no need for it.
 

andromedaaudio

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I would add one thing , at this level its more a matter of taste and not what is best.
some like avalon , some magico , some wilson, some kharma , sonus faber and some other companies that are playing on a high level .
its the same with cars and watches , some like rolex another one likes breitling and another one likes audemars piquet.
One is happy cruising in his 500 cls and another one is the star in his porsche 911

There is no " absolute sound "its all a matter of taste and just let us enjoy that fact .

henk jan
 

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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I think the most remarkable fact about this thread is the fact that the vast majority of comments were made before anyone could hear the speaker itself! There were so many general comments on the "Magico" house sound that assumptions were extended to what the Q7 should or might sound like before the speaker debuted! This certainly speaks to the fact that, for what it is worth, Magico has certainly captured the imagination of audiophiles one way or another. Or, as a Hollywood PR person might say "who cares what they are saying about my client- as long as they are talking"! And so it appears to be with the unique glamor of Magico.

Of course, now that some of us have heard the speaker, it is fair game to chime in with specific comments. Mine are not very flattering. I put the speaker's sound into some context here as I was ruminating about how so may speakers at CES could have genuinely benefited from some sort of EQ, the Magico Q7 being one of them.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5517-CES-News-Flash&p=83301#post83301

I am neither a Magico lover or hater a priori. I have for the most part never heard a pair of Magico's I loved, with one exception which were a pair of M5's played with VAC equipment at a dealer in Berkeley. When the M5 was paired with Solution gear, I thought the sound was about as attractive as the sound of nails on a blackboard. I think its fair to say I really wanted to like the Q7. But I was disappointed in the extreme. A great speaker? Hardly. In fact, I would say it was not even a good sounding speaker in my opinion. I heard 3 pieces on it in the sweet spot", all sourced from the "proprietary" server they were using. One of the pieces was the great orchestral piece Tam O'Shanter from the Reference Mephisto disc. Two other pieces were far lighter. My main objection is that the sound was far too hi-fi and simply not musically engaging. Components of good sound were there (midrange, midbass), but overall, the integration failed poorly because it just didn't move me. I could not shake the fact I was listening to a speaker. "Being transported" rating on a 10 scale? About a minus 1. As far as specifics, the top end was certainly bright. This is no surprise. Magico speakers typically have great top end extension that is ruler flat at the listening position. If you think that's the way a speaker should sound, fine, but I don't. I admit I am a fan of the B&K microphone "ideal speaker response" curve that has been published extensively elsewhere for over 30 years in which the top end rolls off gently at the listening position. But that's just my preference. It's not necessarily a right one or wrong one. But since it is my preference, I came away thinking you could fry eggs on the top end of the Q7 treble response. Like I said, it just was not my cup of tea. But that wasn't the worst of its problems for me. Surprisingly, I found there to be an annoying grundge in the 2500-3500 range that I thought was very weird- as if something just wasn't right. I doubt this was due to the speakers themselves. But without knowing more about the associated equipment, I just grimaced until I couldn't listen anymore. But this much was clear- it just wasn't right. Overall, it was a deep disappointment. Now let me put this into comparative context. The Q7 is $165K. The Sonus Faber Aida is 125K. Now that's a 40K difference that most of us don't even have. (Yeah, I get that, but why ruin a good discussion). The point is that the sound of the Aida, in contrast to the Q7, was extraordinary. The Aida was a musical instrument that served the music far better that the bright, something-ain't-right sound of the Q7. And it was 40K cheaper to boot! Not a contest in my mind. One made beautiful music, the other made a unimpressive demo and nothing more. I honestly believe it made the Q7 sound like a fancy PA system in comparison. I'll tell you this. If anyone tells you that the sound of the Q7 was "the best sound of show" at CES, run, don't walk, to get the opinion of another reviewer who has more credibility as a good listener than a syncophant of the manufacturer. But for my money, I'd rather take home, say, a Sony SS-AR1 and $138K in change than a Q7 any day of the week.
 

Robert

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Nov 10, 2010
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Marty,

Prepare to be thoroughly thrashed for your opinion. This hype has reached a fevered pitch. The expense, manufacturer, and reviewers are in perfect alignment. That's fine, because this is audio business and not world peace, but let's recognize it for what it is.

I found the Q5 to have the same sound and I could not get over the realization that I was sitting in front of a pair of speakers instead of a performance. Yes, they sounded clean and integrated well, but I felt disconnected. While I could hear everything on the recording, things didn't congeal, IMO.

One can put together a musically satisfying system for 5 figures that will bring tears of joy any day of the week. You don't need to spend as much as a house to have a system that is 100% satisfying.
 
Jan 18, 2012
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Drobak Norway
hello
Actually I often find it easier to enjoy music over an average system, since I don´t have any expectations.
Of all the expensive systems I´ve heard, very few connect, but rather scream:" listen to me how good I do bass or ss or dynamics"
the really good systems have no special features that stand out above the others, and one doesn´t for a second define the experience in terms of hights, resolution or ss
best
Leif
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
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This is an interesting turn. Each of us not only hears differently, and hears different things, but actually approaches the evaluation of audio systems differently. I respect the opinion of everyone that does listen, and I try to learn from each. I found a comment that Gary Koh made in another thread fascinating. I think it went largely overlooked: he basically asked how you evaluate sound based on your emotional reaction.

I had a similar conversation at CES with a manufacturer. My point then was that I have emotional reactions to music all the time, and not just with my home audio system. It may be in the car, or just this morning on my run listening to Nelly as I was trying to get through the last mile. Music can make me react emotionally regardless of where I hear it or what I hear it over. It has little to do with high fidelity – though I obviously have strong emotional reactions to great music over a great system all the time.

When I am reviewing a component or evaluating products at a show, I mainly try to focus on evaluating sound, not measuring my emotion (which invariably has to do with musical content). It is the careful evaluation of sound, as objectively as possible, that leads, IMO, to the determination of what is of the highest fidelity. That, to me, is the only credible way to level the playing field for all the products. If it were only emotional reaction, the best “sound” might just come down to what music was being played. My job is to evaluate sound, and to me the highest fidelity sound is what ultimately denotes the best products.
 
Jan 18, 2012
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Drobak Norway
true
but if the system doesn´t connect, I´m not bothered waisting time on dissecting it, beyond maybe analyzing what´s missing or to much, or even in wrong proportions
best
Leif
 

phillipK

New Member
Oct 23, 2010
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Marty,
Indeed an odd comment. I am a fan, and own the Q5. I thought that the Q7 sounded very different then my Q5 and if anything, quite dark and rich sounding. I am not sure what you heard, but it is sure different then what I, and many others, have.
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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Hi Marty,

interesting comments, but at least you listed your preferences - so I used your advice to "run", and since I personally find the slightly-rolled-off response at the listening position approach so outdated and unrealistic-sounding, I basically dismissed your mini "review". That wasn't, though, the main issue - the main issue is that, instead of simply saying that here are my preferences and the Q7 just doesn't meet them, you went on to literally trash the speaker... at least that's how your comments read...
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
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www.bendingwaveusa.com
I would add one thing , at this level its more a matter of taste and not what is best.
some like avalon , some magico , some wilson, some kharma , sonus faber and some other companies that are playing on a high level .
its the same with cars and watches , some like rolex another one likes breitling and another one likes audemars piquet.
One is happy cruising in his 500 cls and another one is the star in his porsche 911

There is no " absolute sound "its all a matter of taste and just let us enjoy that fact .

henk jan
Dear Sir,
You are certainly entitiled to your opinion and to make a choice that you like. You can put ketchup on Filet Mignon and put ice cubes in Chateau Latour however that does not make it right.
There is an absolute sound, it is the sound of live un-amplified instruments in an acoustic space. Thiis should be the goal of all audio systems. I am not foolish I realize that this is very hard however if we are not holding what we do to a standard and are not trying to achieve this goal then what is the point with all this expensive gear. I disagree violently with JV and many of the reviewers in this notion that there are three standards. This Sir is a cop out. If one doesn't want to listen to the real thing then one really can't judge anything.
I believe in many respects the industry has lost it's way and it is sad that there are not coherent standards that all should try to achieve. It seems that many companies feel like you do and then by diluting the meaning it all becomes kind fo the same.
In this thread it is very interesting to read the statements by various people some praising the speaker and others st strongly condemning it. I was not there but there must be something going on here for there to such a large diversity in opinion. If it is just being jealous that is really awful but since I know a few of the writers I don't think that is the case. It would be interesting to get to the bottom of why this great divide has occurred.
I have not read a bad word about the ARC room with the Aida and I am sure that all of the posters here heard both so ......I am confused as to the results
 

KeithR

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May 7, 2010
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Hi Marty,

interesting comments, but at least you listed your preferences - so I used your advice to "run", and since I personally find the slightly-rolled-off response at the listening position approach so outdated and unrealistic-sounding, I basically dismissed your mini "review". That wasn't, though, the main issue - the main issue is that, instead of simply saying that here are my preferences and the Q7 just doesn't meet them, you went on to literally trash the speaker... at least that's how your comments read...

So what? He's not entitled to his opinion on the Q7s, which happened to be extremely poor in this particular setting (which he acknowledges could be the issue and needed EQ)?

I thought Q5s sucked on Soulution gear at THE Show and sounded as dead as my grandma. So what. Lots of people think my Zu speakers suck at shows. Audio is personal, especially at the speaker level, but i think criticism is appropriate for this venue.

And I almost bought Magicos lol, so I'm not a hater. My guess is some don't like the move from wood to aluminum cabinets as well as the move to beryllium tweeters---which maybe is why he preferred M5s/Vac at one setting.

Sometimes folks in audio and especially the press give too much faith in designers---they occasionally make crappy products. The Cary 2002, Jeff Rowland digital amps, Proac Futures, ARC SP11, BAT 42SE, Scaena Subs, the 200k joke of a speaker from last CES, Wilson Witt, etc.
 

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