Magico Q7

Roysen

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I listened to the Q7 at CES 8 months ago, and reserved my opinion because the hotel room set up didn’t allow proper judgment on their potential: they sounded good, but not great. Then I spent 3 days listening to the Q7 in a well treated rom, with different amp configurations: VAC Reference 450 + VAC pre, Constellation Centaur + Spectral Pre (as we preferred it to the Virgo), Spectral 260 + Spectral pre. All cables top of the range MIT.
Before going into comparisons between amps, I have to say that I was completely blown away. I have only 3 words: wow, wow, wow! I just didn’t want to leave the room! They have all the strengths of other Magico speakers but brought to a different level (transparency to the source, absence of distortion, linearity, precision of imaging, the way they disappear as a source). Compared to the Q5, they are much easier to drive, so they are better at giving a sense of effortlessness and unlimited dynamic. The bass is great: extended, punchy and with a lot of definition on bass guitars or cello. They are hyper analytical but not fatiguing at all. They just sound like the real thing.
I have been in the market for a new pair of speaker for a while, have listened several times to most super high end speakers on the planet (Wilson XLF, Maxx3, The Sonus Faber, Sonus Faber Aida, Tidal Sunray and Agoria, Rockport Altair, the big MBL and many many others…). Many of them are good speakers, but I have to say that the Magico in a good set up (I insist on “good set up” for reasons explained below) are in a very different category: it is like comparing a Ferrari 458 with a BMW M5. I was so shocked by the difference that I am wondering how Sonus Faber, Tidal or Wilson can still sell so many top of the range speakers (sure the speaker finish is beautiful and many of these speakers are tuned to have a pleasing sound...). When compared to the Q7, it is for example surprising how the XLF lacks both extension, definition and linearity in the bass as well as transparency in the highs. The Sonus has a nice and pleasing sound… but it is like putting a veil on the music: I like it for 10min... but after 1hr got tired of all the details I am missing.

No back to your question on amps: The Q7 are so transparent to the source, that you hear extremely clearly differences in the source or amp used- that’s why it is very important to hear them in a good set up to know what they are really able to deliver. It is the first time I listen to a system where the limiting factor is not the speaker, but the amp.
I didn’t like the VAC at all: rounded, heavy slow bass, pleasing euphonic mid and highs… but why getting the most transparent speaker to put a veil on music?
Unlike in Munich where the Q7 with Spectral 260 had great bass (it was a 220v amp), this 110V Spectral lacked seriously in bass response. Very surprising, maybe because it was not fully breaked in? On the other side, the mid and highs were extremely transparent, the best of the 3.
The Constellation Centaur was the most balanced of the 3: good bass, sweet and defined mid and highs (even if not as much as the Spectral), great image. I would chose this one as a candidate, to be compared to the Soulution 5 series and big Dartzeel (I love the small Dartzeel and own one, but it is not powerful enough). I have already eliminated the FM acoustic as candidate: old technology, overrated for the price (even after discount). And I find the Balabo a bit too round for my taste.
I have read your previous posts and it seems you have been shortlisting the biggest and most expensive amps among most famous brands. The most expensive is not always the best (for example, the Spectral 260 sounds much better than the 360 mono). If I would be you, I would also listen to the smaller amps, just because they often sound better (what you lose in absolute slam and dynamic headroom, you gain in coherency and transparency, because you have less transistors in the signal). Whereas for the Q5 you need for example a Soulution 700 or 710 to hear their true potential, the Q7 have a much higher sensitivity and would probably work as well or better with the Soulution 5 serie (more recent topology, less transistors in the signal): that’s why I believe that the Q7 is a better bargain than the Q5, what you pay extra for the speakers your save it on amps, and get a better system overall.
Hope it helps - it is just my opinion, at the end you have to trust your ears

Hi, Stereo. Thanks for your input! In regards to amplifier choice it is not correct that I have assempled my prospects list based on price. I have chosen those I think might be the best. As for Spectral I have only ever heard a Spectral amplifier once. It was in the Munich show 2011 with a pair of Wilson Sasha, Spectral pre and Spectral CD-player. It sounded awful. It was the shared biggest disappointment with the Magico Q3 and Devialet system. I am not sure I agree with you on smaller vs bigger amplifiers in terms of coherency and transparency. In my experience (as a user of the Krell MRA to drive the 91db/8Ohm tweeter/midrange only of the Audio Physic Cerubin), more power is better control of the speaker and better control of the speaker results in better coherency and tranparency. Additonally with the top models like Soulution 700, darTZeel NHB-458, Goldmund Telos 3500/Constellation Audio Hercules the topology design is also the best the company can do which pretty much provides more coherency and transparency. In regards to Spectral, the 360s are not the most recent design. It is rumoured that a 400 is in the works, so that might explain why the 360 is not the current best Spectral amplifier.

The Q7 don't extend as low as I am used to with my current speakers (Audio Physic top models Medea, Cerubin and Kronos), so I might try to extend the Q7s bass by adding a pair of Burmester S8 subwoofers.

I have already ordered the Q7 and have by that reserved my spot in the waiting list.

Thanks,
Roysen
 

stereo

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I ve measured a lot of speakers and ill be very surprised if there would not be substantial roll off from around50 /60 hz down in the room i listened to them .
Bass modes can very a lot in different rooms a 5 d b dip at 50 hz in one room can be flat in another.
Bigger woofers will certainly matter a lot and the double 12 and 10 in the Q7 is a big step up, well see .
The tweeter is the same , and i doubt the mid setion will be that much different .
A flat measuring speaker is not nescessarily right in my opinion , have you ever seen the roll off characteristics of recording mikes , a slowly steepening curve in the bass of lets say 3 (5) db would probably be more accurate than a flat one , and ive designed /listened to both

Yes, room response may explain what you have heard. It is pretty common to find dips of 20dB in an non treated room. That's why I always listen to speakers in different room set up before buying them, and also why I invested heavily in room treatment.

No, all of the drivers of the Q7 are completely different, in particular the mid one (that's why it has a much higher sensitivity). You need to see the voice coil and magnet of the drivers and the difference will be obvious to you. Q3 mid magnet and voice coil is already much bigger than anything else you can buy from Scanspeak, Accuton or Focal 8which explains a big part of the Magico sound). But the magnet of the Q7 is a monster compared to it. It is so powerful that it is difficult to raise up the driver if lying on a metal shelf - I tried!
On flat frequency response, I have played extensively with the settings of my MM3 (they have 4 different pots to adjust bass extension, tightness, highs roll off...), while taking measurements with ETF and a calibrated mic. I personally much prefer a linear, flat bass, and a slightly rolled off tweeter.
 

LL21

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Well yes , but still i am very surprised the wilson X owners almost all use subs , it makes me think that the mtm 95 db efficiency is not matched properly by the bassmodule with the twin focal woofers .

Agree it does seem very, very consistent amongst Wilson X1, X2...and XLF owners. The 2 XLF home systems i know about both have subs. Still, it works.
 

stereo

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Hi Roysen,
I believe we think quite similar on the amp topic. More powerful amps have more headroom to deal with fast transients, and better control of the driver, which is clearly an advantage. On the other side, the more transistors you put in parallel, the more you lose in precision (nearly impossible to perfectly match different transistors!). I discussed extensively with Herve from Dartzeel: it took him so much time to launch the 458 because it was difficult to build a more powerful amp than the NHB108, which still sounds as good.
On the Hercules, it shares exactly the same topology as the Centaur, additional power is obtained by putting several 150W modules in parallel.
On the Soulution, the 5 series uses a more recent (better) topology than the current 7 series. I assume they will also update the 7 series.
So bottom line, question is how much do you gain vs. what you lose with a bigger amp? It will be worth trying a comparison between both series, given the high sensitivity of the Q7.
Congratulations on your purchase of the Q7! Btw, I read you have your room being designed by SMT- I am doing the same at the moment (level 3 room)
 

Roysen

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What I find a little strange is the use of Mundorf capacitors in the Magico Q7 crossover. I am surprised that a product with such bleeding edge technology in drivers and cabinet is not using something like Duelund CAST or at least simiarliy advanced components in the crossover as the rest of the product. I find this especially interesting since Yair Tammam told me Rockport Technologies used very old technology in its crossovers.

Thanks,
Roysen
 

Roysen

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Aug 6, 2011
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Hi Roysen,
I believe we think quite similar on the amp topic. More powerful amps have more headroom to deal with fast transients, and better control of the driver, which is clearly an advantage. On the other side, the more transistors you put in parallel, the more you lose in precision (nearly impossible to perfectly match different transistors!). I discussed extensively with Herve from Dartzeel: it took him so much time to launch the 458 because it was difficult to build a more powerful amp than the NHB108, which still sounds as good.
On the Hercules, it shares exactly the same topology as the Centaur, additional power is obtained by putting several 150W modules in parallel.
On the Soulution, the 5 series uses a more recent (better) topology than the current 7 series. I assume they will also update the 7 series.
So bottom line, question is how much do you gain vs. what you lose with a bigger amp? It will be worth trying a comparison between both series, given the high sensitivity of the Q7.
Congratulations on your purchase of the Q7! Btw, I read you have your room being designed by SMT- I am doing the same at the moment (level 3 room)

I also think we might agree more than it seems but with the Hercules compared to the Centaur, the Hercules have the 150W modules connected in a bridged configuration which lowers the noise floor. This should bring better transparency and coherency. The Soulution 501 uses a switch mode mode PSU which to me is not as transparent as the 700s. The 501 is a great sounding amplifier for its price but not a match for the 700. From what I have learend there will be an upgrade of the 700s next year but it will be much more extensive than using technology from the 501.

Yes, I am using SMT for my rooms.

Thanks,
Roysen
 

andromedaaudio

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Roysen i think if you suggest it to alon , it would be easy for him to do it for you , at a price off course , it does need a change of the components board because i think from my memory they are larger to place than mundorf caps , you would get the " roysen Q 7 " then
 

stereo

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What I find a little strange is the use of Mundorf capacitors in the Magico Q7 crossover. I am surprised that a product with such bleeding edge technology in drivers and cabinet is not using something like Duelund CAST or at least simiarliy advanced components in the crossover as the rest of the product. I find this especially interesting since Yair Tammam told me Rockport Technologies used very old technology in its crossovers.

Well, at least compared to what most other brands are using, the Q7 filter is an overkill. It is probably 10 times bigger than the one you would find in the big TAD... The inductances are so big... bigger than the toroidal power supply in a lot of amps! The caps are also huge, much larger than on the Q3-Q5.
I don't know about Duelund, maybe it would be even better, you should ask Alon.
 

andromedaaudio

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Thats all well and nice stereo , but filtercircuit design itself is far more important than big caps and coils alone
Oversized neodymium magnets is also beautifull , but says litlle about the end result.
I think the mundorf /duelund comparison wasnt worth the price difference for magico , i am sure he tried it , a perfectionist as he is
 

Roysen

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Well, at least compared to what most other brands are using, the Q7 filter is an overkill. It is probably 10 times bigger than the one you would find in the big TAD... The inductances are so big... bigger than the toroidal power supply in a lot of amps! The caps are also huge, much larger than on the Q3-Q5.
I don't know about Duelund, maybe it would be even better, you should ask Alon.

The question was based on curiosity based on the knowledge of the components used and Yair Tammam's comment. I am in no position to tell what is best for this design, so I am certainly not going to suggest a change of the product to Alon Wolf. I might ask him what his choice was based on but there really is no need because the answer is 100% surely that the current choice is what he thinks sounds best. Having said that the Duelund CAST is vastly more neutral and transparent than any Mundorf capacitor unless Magico are getting something specially made.

Thanks,
Roysen
 

microstrip

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Agree it does seem very, very consistent amongst Wilson X1, X2...and XLF owners. The 2 XLF home systems i know about both have subs. Still, it works.

Subs can help fighting the "bad" room modes. Once I read something like the best systems with subwoofers are those which should not need them. After some weeks tuning a pair of Martin Logan Descent i's added to full range speakers extending to 20Hz in room I understand this sentence. In his review of the XLF in last HiFiNews Paul Miller also comments this aspect of the X2.
 

FrantzM

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Subs can help fighting the "bad" room modes. Once I read something like the best systems with subwoofers are those which should not need them. After some weeks tuning a pair of Martin Logan Descent i's added to full range speakers extending to 20Hz in room I understand this sentence. In his review of the XLF in last HiFiNews Paul Miller also comments this aspect of the X2.

Agreed and to me for most speakers in most rooms...

I am interested to hear more opinions on the Q7. I do believe that the best thing a transducer can do is be flat... That it reproduces the signal fed with linearity . I am however of two minds about this. Power response of a speaker seems to me very important as in most instances speakers that have been equalized to be flat on axis often do not seem to sound right to me. This seems to depend in my experience with the dispersion characteristics of the speaker ... Too wide a dispersion a some frequencies and depending on the room may results in an overly brght, dry reproduction, I prefer controlled distribution but even there I amnot entirely clear on what is going on... At the same time some speakers that have really strange to bad FR sound good to me and many other audiophile. This seems to require investigation. I haven't heard much about any research in this area.

I tend to prefer speakers that add the least amount of themselves to the reproduction, in that sense I am attracted to that I have heard from the Q3, I have not yet heard the Q5 and Q7. There seems seem to be a sense of "linearity" of "quietness" in the Q3 absent in many speakers. It takes a while to understand, listening to various cuts one become aware of subtleties hidden by many speakers. I am interested to know what the Q5 and Q7 sound like... The Q7 For education purposes. The requisite cash outlay for the Q7 is not inline with my thinking. My intellectual problem with the Q5 is the low sensitivity, I would think a real world sensitiity of about 82 dB/w/m or even less.. Haven't seen measurements ...

As for power I am of the opinion that the more quality power one can have the better...Music is about transient and good transient reproduction requires power, lot of it. One should not confound SPL as measured by most SPL with the instantaneous SPL requirements of most music ... There is an ease to the reproduction afforded by powerful amplifiers than less powerful amplifiers cannot bring. It used to be that the better amplifiers were of modest wattage.. This is no longer true.
 

andromedaaudio

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In my opinion /experience its all about the efficiency / impedance drop of the speaker .
I would compare it with a race car , the lighter the car is , the smaller the engine can be to reach the same speed .
The higher the efficiency and the higher the overall impedance the smaller the amp can be , take for example steve , he has had the (al) most powerfull krells that were on the market and is now using 32 watts per channel .

But i do agree it wont hurt more power:D
 

microstrip

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As for power I am of the opinion that the more quality power one can have the better...Music is about transient and good transient reproduction requires power, lot of it. One should not confound SPL as measured by most SPL with the instantaneous SPL requirements of most music ... There is an ease to the reproduction afforded by powerful amplifiers than less powerful amplifiers cannot bring. It used to be that the better amplifiers were of modest wattage.. This is no longer true.


Frantz,

This statement would deserve a dedicated thread. I have a test CD that has 0. -20 and -40 dB 1KHz signals, that I sometimes carry with me to auditions or even friends systems. After we listen I measure the output of the amplifier using the -40dB track (surely not the 0dB) at the maximum level used in the preamplifier and compute the peak power. 99% of people at home have peaks at less than 30% of the maximum power of their amplifiers. Shows are different business - they use crazy levels.

Why should good transient reproduction need more power than what is asked by the loudspeaker? Digital maximum levels levels are so predictable.

And yes, I know and accept that most of the time overpowering results in better reproduction. But would like to know why. An audio transient can not have magic properties.
 

LL21

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Subs can help fighting the "bad" room modes. Once I read something like the best systems with subwoofers are those which should not need them. After some weeks tuning a pair of Martin Logan Descent i's added to full range speakers extending to 20Hz in room I understand this sentence. In his review of the XLF in last HiFiNews Paul Miller also comments this aspect of the X2.

In my own personal experience in my own systems...that is true. I have always found my smaller speakers which 'needed a sub'...actually resulted in a sound i preferred...but which i knew had some 'holes' in the frequency. Whereas with my 'full range' speakers...the sub is blocked above 41hz...and i have never experienced better in my room. And the sub makes at least as much improvement to the quality of the sound in my room, as it did when i had Guarneris.
I would not have my system without it...truly tight deep bass impact is stunning even at volume 1.
 

LL21

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Agreed and to me for most speakers in most rooms...

I am interested to hear more opinions on the Q7. I do believe that the best thing a transducer can do is be flat... That it reproduces the signal fed with linearity . I am however of two minds about this.

I am also of two minds on this...but from a far less scientific standpoint. I used to have SF Strads like Dafos who mentions them earlier in this thread. Buy them...and you're nearly there in terms of the sound you are going to get. Midpowered tube, high powered SS Krell...you're still going to end up with sound that is in the SF family. And if you love SF, why not? Its much easier this way. Does that mean its colored? Perhaps...but ultimately, there is coloration or distortion no matter what we do...there is no perfection in audio.

OTOH, get a Magico and be ready to do a lot of intensive system matching. Cause you're gonna hear it if you get electronics which you dont like. Conversely, you'll likely hear more of your electronics which you love with Magico as well. So get that system right, and I can see why people think its the best they've ever heard. Essentially, you've found electronics you like and the Magico lets you hear them instead of itself.

Net, net it is still about assembling equipment to reproduce a sound you enjoy. Again, much less scientific, but that is my personal approach.

As a result of moving from SF to Wilson, i have had to focus more on electronics than before...and i am finally at a point that it has crossed my mind...what would my system sound like if i substituted Magicos for the X1s? I have no interest in buying a new set of speakers...but having been 'forced' by X1 to select my electronics even more carefully than before...i do now wonder if i would the sound of my electronics thru the Q7. I'd like to think yes.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I will answer the questions about power and bow out of this interesting OT. I will try to refresh the dedicated thread on the subject. For me it is a clear thing.

I have always marveled at the sheer loudness of even symphonic music. It is louder than most realize and because of the short burst of veryhigh level sounds, it doesn't hurt us. Tom Danley of Danley SoundLabs, person who knows more about sound reproduction than most, has a much better explanation. I will post it here.. It is to me a required reading for any audiophile. it is a reply from a thread started by Caesar, he , of very interesting seemingly trivial but in reality xtremely important question that would help many in making thei systems better.


The THREAD (Click Here)


The post
I have hesitated to mention the L word (Loudness) because most people have a strong preconceived picture of what that is at least subjectively, maybe like how it was with subwoofers once, it’s mostly an incomplete view.

From the technical point of view, Mark hit on one key issue that separates live sounds with recorded sounds. Most folks think of loudness like the classic “VU” meter, VU meaning Volume Units fwiw.
That indicator was developed to roughly represent the subjective loudness in the dynamic realm. This IS NOT an indicator of actual loudness, just how loud it sounds.
It works because the meter movement integrates out he peaks to a large degree, the meter shows something like an average over some time. This was needed back in the days of tape where the dynamic range was very limited relative to now with digital, recording at but not above max was important for noise. Unlike digital, tape was not a brick wall at 0dB but could tolerate >0dB levels if short (making the distortion inaudible).

Switching away from the subjective to the operation and technical requirements;

If one looks at the instantaneous voltage from a proper microphone, one finds that many things produce very high but short peak levels. For example, throwing a table spoon on to a tile kitchen floor, produced a peak level of 134dB SPL, being in a car with the windows rolled up and then closing the door produced a peak SPL of 142dB SPL.

Now, these sound like “deafening” levels but because they are short, VERY FEW are aware they exist and instead associate “loudness” with the averaged SPL readings. Now, as Mark suggests, drums are VERY loud AND they do not contain the normal distribution of harmonics but are more like an energy envelope occupying a short time.

To make recordings that “fit” on to a records dynamic range or through AM radio, it was necessary to compress this kind of signal.
With the peak maximum level set by the equipment involved, compressing the dynamic range then makes the drum sound louder because it’s average level is increased. In the extreme, one has the sound of big cymbals on some pop recordings that are SO compressed they actually sound like a high hat or something else entirely.

So, while much music is processed so that it sounds pretty good through ear buds while jogging, even a good home system is often incapable of approaching “live” even when a recording of same is used.

To reproduce something trivial like the spoon hitting the floor, one can say well with Sound level meter set on fast, it produced a peak in the 90’s.
Or, one can say, well, on an oscilloscope, the peak microphone Voltage corresponded to a peak SPL in the mid 130’s.

With one way requiring about 10,000 times more energy and being similarly more difficult, guess which way the industry goes, which kind of system can be added to an elegant room without being noticed.
In the case of a drum, one must also reproduce a wide range of harmonics at the same instant which is an entirely separate "hard task" which gets more difficult the large the acoustic power is required.
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs

Here is a fun link to a "level indicator" which helps illustrate what a difference time makes. Look at your most and least dynamic recordings with it. Remember loudness and dynamics.

http://orban.com/meter/
 

LL21

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Thanks, Frantz. For non-techies like me...an excellent read. Appreciate your taking the time to find it, copy it and post it here. A good read.
 

DEV

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andromedaaudio... I suggest you go to listen to them before posting an opinion on something you never heard, or you may regret your posts like hifimaniac on the Q7 thread on Audiogon:

"I'm a Believer now; I have seen the light. I finally had a chance to listen to the Magico Q7's in a real world, home system and I can say I heard the magic. Dartzeel NHB 450M amps; Dartzeel 18 NS Pre amp with internal phono; Wave Kinetics NVS TT w/Talea tone arm and Ortofon A90 cartridge; mostly Tara labs cabling and all I can say is it was the best sound I have ever heard, bar none! What's even more amazing is the speaker isn't even fully broken in! I will return in a month and listen again. Sorry for all my negative comments above; but this proves how important system set up and electronics is for the best sound to flow with this speaker. I was amazed at the inner detail, musicality, dynamics and sheer effortless sound. Anne-Sophie Mutter's "Carmen Fantasie" on DG Vinyl sounded so real I wanted to cry! This is an all digital recordinng but the LP was anything but! The Gladiator soundtrack LP played loud never hinted at break up or smearing; simply stunning presentation. I won't be selling my Evolution Acoustics anytime soon, but do now appreciate the quality and what this speaker is capable of reproducing."

Hi stereo,

some great info. I have been reading this thread and these speakers have really peaked my interest. I would love to hear this set-up, is this person a member and where is it located US?
 

stereo

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Hi stereo,

some great info. I have been reading this thread and these speakers have really peaked my interest. I would love to hear this set-up, is this person a member and where is it located US?

Hifimaniac is located in the US. You can contact him directly on Audiogon and ask him where he listened to the Q7
 

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