Preamp selection help/advice

rockitman · Nov 23, 2011

It's time for me to replace my venerable Madgrigal Labs Mark Levinson 380S. Up to now I have had my heart set on the new Pass Labs XP-30 (I can audition this) $16,500.

My sources:

Analog - Pass Labs XP-25
Digital - PS Audio Perfect Wave v2.0
Amps - Pass Labs XA 100.5 monoblocks.
Interconnect (Pre to Power) - Siltech Classic 770i G7 series, 3m, XLR

Other preamps under consideration:

Spectral DMC-30SS SERIES 2 $10,000
Audio Research Reference Anniversary $24,995
Lamm Model L2 Reference $13,690
DarTZeel NHB-18NS $23,250
Allnic L3000 $10,900

Sticking with Pass may offer advantageous synergies I suspect, but I shouldn't rule out tube/ tube/ss hybrids. Quite operation is of paramount importance. My budget...up to $25k though I would prefer to be in the $15k range. TIA for your help.

jazdoc · Nov 23, 2011

A little off the beaten path but I have yet to hear anything better...The Experience Music Kahn Linestage. Two box unit with distinctive styling. The unit can be customized for your choice of rectification and driver tubes. Myunit arrives in 10 days, but I had an extensive in house demo before purchasing and this is an easy recommendation. I compared with many of the pre-amplifiers you are considering. Please feel free to PM.

You can arrange an in house demo with a 'standard' version of the line stage which uses a 'standard' chassis and does not include premium parts.

Steve Williams · Nov 23, 2011

rockitman said:
It's time for me to replace my venerable Madgrigal Labs Mark Levinson 380S. Up to now I have had my heart set on the new Pass Labs XP-30 (I can audition this) $16,500.

My sources:

Analog - Pass Labs XP-25
Digital - PS Audio Perfect Wave v2.0
Amps - Pass Labs XA 100.5 monoblocks.
Interconnect (Pre to Power) - Siltech Classic 770i G7 series, 3m, XLR

Other preamps under consideration:

Spectral DMC-30SS SERIES 2 $10,000
Audio Research Reference Anniversary $24,995
Lamm Model L2 Reference $13,690
DarTZeel NHB-18NS $23,250
Allnic L3000 $10,900

Sticking with Pass may offer advantageous synergies I suspect, but I shouldn't rule out tube/ tube/ss hybrids. Quite operation is of paramount importance. My budget...up to $25k though I would prefer to be in the $15k range. TIA for your help.

All great choices but wouldn't the Pass pre be a better match for your amps

RBFC · Nov 23, 2011

Yep, you owe it to yourself to audition the Pass before hunting around.

Lee

rockitman · Nov 23, 2011

Thanks guys...I guess for solid state, Pass may be the best fit for me. I do wonder about that Allnic L3000 Line stage though....perhaps some tubes will offer up a bit of more fresh air and 3 Dimensionality ? I have some balanced (xlr) source inputs so the Lamm presents an issue for me there. The Dagogo review of the Allnic I read glowed !
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=799

Even though I will audition the Pass first and probably won't be able to audition the others, I am depending on user experiences from this forum. If I get the Pass home, I'm sure I will like it and the preamp audition will be over, that is why I am trying to get a better handle on the other options to see if I want to take a risk and purchase another brand w/o audition....

MylesBAstor · Nov 23, 2011

rockitman said:
Thanks guys...I guess for solid state, Pass may be the best fit for me. I do wonder about that Allnic L3000 Line stage though....perhaps some tubes will offer up a bit of more fresh air and 3 Dimensionality ? I have some balanced (xlr) source inputs so the Lamm presents an issue for me there. The Dagogo review of the Allnic I read glowed !
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=799

Even though I will audition the Pass first and probably won't be able to audition the others, I am depending on user experiences from this forum. If I get the Pass home, I'm sure I will like it and the preamp audition will be over, that is why I am trying to get a better handle on the other options to see if I want to take a risk and purchase another brand w/o audition....

I personally like the Allnic phono paired with cj's GAT, but as you mentioned, the cj is only single ended (not a problem for me

). OTOH, getting some tube magic in the playback chain is always a good thing

Re: the Allnic. I assume (I didn't see it mentioned in the review but saw in the picture what looked like the attachment for an outboard power cord) that they use an outboard, tube rectified power supply in the preamp like Allnic does in the phono. That said, the quality of that tube has a tremendous impact on the unit's sound. If Jack reviewed it with the stock Sino tubes, then you can bet it sounds even better.

Steve Williams · Nov 23, 2011

adding a tube preamp will give you some sonic benefits of tubes which could pair well with your SS amps

No problem with Lamm preamps

Vladimir uses XLR connections out which are pseudobalanced (IOW you can use an XLR cable but it behaves as a SE cable )

BTW, I run a 10 meter pseudobalanced cable from my LL1 Signature to my ML3 with absolutely no loss or degradation of signal. This was a major issue for me when I decided to go with that combo but Vladimir assured me that there would be no loss of signal. He was right and I am very happy

garylkoh · Nov 23, 2011

IMO where preamps are concerned, tubes have their place, but it's a very personal thing. If you like the "glow" of tubes then you may like what it does (not that there are no neutral tube preamps.)

If it were me, I wouldn't buy anything that I can't audition for an extended period in my own system. A linestage should be "straight wire with attenuation" but usually isn't. Since I have a DAC with a volume control, inserting a line stage should be no worse than taking it away and plugging the two interconnects between the DAC and power amp together (level matched to 0.2dB). Unfortunately, you can hear the insertion of most preamps - some preamps make it sound more relaxed/dynamic/wider soundstage/warm/etc. Choose your own adjective. The extended audition is to that you can listen to all sorts of music and ask yourself if that is what you want for all the music in your library. Otherwise, you'll not listen to some of your music, and that will be a shame.

rockitman · Nov 23, 2011

garylkoh said:
IMO where preamps are concerned, tubes have their place, but it's a very personal thing. If you like the "glow" of tubes then you may like what it does (not that there are no neutral tube preamps.)

If it were me, I wouldn't buy anything that I can't audition for an extended period in my own system. A linestage should be "straight wire with attenuation" but usually isn't. Since I have a DAC with a volume control, inserting a line stage should be no worse than taking it away and plugging the two interconnects between the DAC and power amp together (level matched to 0.2dB). Unfortunately, you can hear the insertion of most preamps - some preamps make it sound more relaxed/dynamic/wider soundstage/warm/etc. Choose your own adjective. The extended audition is to that you can listen to all sorts of music and ask yourself if that is what you want for all the music in your library. Otherwise, you'll not listen to some of your music, and that will be a shame.

Thanks Gary for the advice. Your right, at this level, if I can't work out a demo with a given manufacturer, I should move on.

mauidan · Nov 23, 2011

garylkoh said:
. Since I have a DAC with a volume control, inserting a line stage should be no worse than taking it away and plugging the two interconnects between the DAC and power amp together (level matched to 0.2dB). Unfortunately, you can hear the insertion of most preamps - some preamps make it sound more relaxed/dynamic/wider soundstage/warm/etc. Choose your own adjective. The extended audition is to that you can listen to all sorts of music and ask yourself if that is what you want for all the music in your library. Otherwise, you'll not listen to some of your music, and that will be a shame.

Since rockitman has a DAC with a volume control and balanced outputs. IMO, the best way to improve his digital playback would be to order the MK II upgrade for his PWD and connect the DAC directly to his amps.

http://www.psaudio.com/products/audio/media-players/pwd-mki-to-mkii

rockitman · Nov 23, 2011

devert said:
Since rockitman has a DAC with a volume control and balanced outputs. IMO, the best way to improve his digital playback would be to order the MK II upgrade for his PWD and connect the DAC directly to his amps.

http://www.psaudio.com/products/audio/media-players/pwd-mki-to-mkii

Yes, the upgrade order will be put in this weekend for the PW DAC. I haven't tried it direct to amp yet. Perhaps I will give it a go for the digital listening...alas my analog front end needs a pre although I do have another phono pre with volume control (Clearaudio Balance+ with ACCU+ Battery unit.) that allows direct connect to the amps.

jazdoc · Nov 23, 2011

rockitman said:
Thanks Gary for the advice. Your right, at this level, if I can't work out a demo with a given manufacturer, I should move on.

+1

microstrip · Nov 23, 2011

Pass amplifiers have 20/30Kohm input impedance (I think these values refer to RCA/XLR impedance) .

Not all tube preamplifiers will show their best at these impedance's - I remember we discussed it in a previous thread. A friend of mine has a VTL 7.5 driving a X600.5 with excellent results in balanced mode. Unhappily, as I never tried the ARC REF5 or REF40 with a Pass amplifier, I can not be of any help.

garylkoh · Nov 23, 2011

I used to think so too (no preamp better). Unfortunately, the very best preamps take away nothing, add nothing, but somehow still manage to sound better than just connecting the DAC to the power amp. Three preamps that I have heard that did this have been the FM Acoustics 255 and 266, the SMcAudio VRE-1 and the Audio Research Ref 3 (although the Ref 3 seemed to change a little something).

For me, the big shift in thinking came when the interconnects I used got to the point where adding a preamp and an interconnect sounded better than directly connecting the interconnect from the poweramp to the DAC.

garylkoh · Nov 23, 2011

microstrip said:
Pass amplifiers have 20/30Kohm input impedance (I think these values refer to RCA/XLR impedance) .

Not all tube preamplifiers will show their best at these impedance's - I remember we discussed it in a previous thread. A friend of mine has a VTL 7.5 driving a X600.5 with excellent results in balanced mode. Unhappily, as I never tried the ARC REF5 or REF40 with a Pass amplifier, I can not be of any help.

Good point! Also, most tube power amps have capacitor coupling and DC on the input is not a problem. Solid-state power amps try to get away from capacitors on the input and then DC on the input IS a problem.

rockitman · Nov 23, 2011

microstrip said:
Pass amplifiers have 20/30Kohm input impedance (I think these values refer to RCA/XLR impedance) .

Not all tube preamplifiers will show their best at these impedance's - I remember we discussed it in a previous thread. A friend of mine has a VTL 7.5 driving a X600.5 with excellent results in balanced mode. Unhappily, as I never tried the ARC REF5 or REF40 with a Pass amplifier, I can not be of any help.

For the ARC Reference 40 Anniversary, the output impedance is 600 ohms Balanced, 300 ohms SE main (2).

I forget the impedance compatibility rule from pre to amp. Given the ARC Ref's Anniversary output impedance, is it a good match for the Pass input impedance ? I am running 3 meter XLR interconnect.

I may just try to find one for audition unlikely as it may be.

MylesBAstor · Nov 23, 2011

garylkoh said:
Good point! Also, most tube power amps have capacitor coupling and DC on the input is not a problem. Solid-state power amps try to get away from capacitors on the input and then DC on the input IS a problem.

I know Dave Wilson pointed out this electrical mismatch, eg. loss of lows and dynamics, between tube pre and ss amps back in Issue 21 (?) of TAS. If IIRC, it's the high output impedance of the tube pre's of those days was the root cause of the problem; therefore, I think that's not as much of an issue with todays tube preamp, like the GAT with an output impedance of 100 ohms. Ten years ago, ran the cj ART (with a higher output impedance of 500 ohms) successfully with the Rowland 12 amplifiers. BTW, the 12s were a heckuva amplifier and wished had been able to publish the review back then

microstrip · Nov 23, 2011

rockitman said:
For the ARC Reference 40 Anniversary, the output impedance is 600 ohms Balanced, 300 ohms SE main (2).

I forget the impedance compatibility rule from pre to amp. Given the ARC Ref's Anniversary output impedance, is it a good match for the Pass input impedance ? I am running 3 meter XLR interconnect.

I may just try to find one for audition unlikely as it may be.

Technically there will be no problem - the output capacitors of the REF40 have large capacity - I think 10 microfarad - and even using a 10 kohm input load the roll-off is under 2 Hz.

A friend of mine listened to it using a Dartzeel amplifier (33kohm input impedance) and is still in privation - he says it was the best bass sound he listened in his life.

rockitman · Nov 23, 2011

Well I'm auditioning the Pass Labs XP-30. I got a no risk trial and the fact my amps and analog source are Pass, perhaps there are some advantageous synergies to be had. I get it on Monday....pretty excited. I will relay my impressions...for what it's worth. Thanks for all the input fella's. Have a Happy Turkey day.

Orb · Nov 23, 2011

Fingers crossed it matches your preferences.
Christian, any reason why the Ayre reference KX-R is not on the list?
This is up there from a technical,build and sound quality perspective, and meant to close the gap to the tube preamps.

Here is hoping you find the perfect match to your preference, all of these are stunning preamps.
Cheers
Orb

Preamp selection help/advice

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