Looking for exceptional after-market belts for my Aries 3 - anyone?

ack

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Here's the problem - I have launched on isolating my Aries 3 from vibration, and so far have been very successful with Stillpoints and Sorbothane. To test the overall effectiveness, I have even stuck my ear on the TT chassis looking for vibrations, and I can still hear tiny vibrations coming from the motor, and when I flick the belt off the motor, the vibrations disappear immediately. Obviously, these vibrations are transmitted by the belt, which is not of the best quality even from a visual perspective (thickness varies, etc).

So are there after-market belts that you know of and/or have used, and can help in attenuating motor vibration? I have a feeling a flywheel in the middle may be the only way to get rid of them. Thoughts?
 

MylesBAstor

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Guess you could try the Forsell tweak: Silk thread.
 

ack

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Silk thread? Do you have a reference to it?
 

American Audiophile

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I had heard somewhere and the reference escapes me now, that the belts for the VPI are nothing more of less than o-rings that have an original application other than audio. One might want to try Small Parts in Miami area and see what belts or o- rings they have. In years past have sourced many parts there that worked marvelously. I remember sourcing some cogged belts there for a turntable the manufacturer no longer stocked. Just a thought that may be of some use.
 

DonH50

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How do you know it's the belt and not the bearings? Try spinning the turntable's platter and letting it free-wheel and listen if you haven't already; hopefully it really is the belt!

However, there's no way a belt can completely eliminate all vibration as the motor itself will create and transmit some to the belt (how much depends on the type of motor, number of poles, ac/dc, frequency, etc.) The motor is not a continuous source; it pulses a bit as it turns. I have in the past tried some "long-life" belts that had nylon (I think) or some other type of reinforcement that made them a little stiffer and claimed better transmission of power from motor to platter. The result was more noise (measured; not too much difference by ear IIRC). Generally plain old rubber belts did best, though too soft and loose can result in more "wow", especially if the platter is not true. (Getting a perfectly true platter is something of an art in itself. In the primordial past, I actually had a local machine shop true some metal (Linn, I think) platters and it made a significant difference. Don't know if that's an option, or needed, today.) There were some plastic-type belts that worked well, too, but some of them were a little too stiff and thus caused higher noise. The belt helps take out some of the motor "pulses", and is one reason most belt-drive TT's actually have lower LF noise than direct-drive.

HTH, IMO, my 0.000001 cents, usual disclaimers apply - Don
 

MiTT

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Yeah, it might not be the belt. I've got an original Aries and experimented with the same issue. I'm sure that the belt is transfering some noise, but in my system I noticed a none to subtle reduction in the noise floor by simply isolating the motor. I had a few small ceramic cones that I placed under the motor and then put my ear directly on the plinth for a listen and there was MUCH less vibration being transferred. Give it a shot, you might be pleasently suprised!

TTTweak..jpg
 

JackD201

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When I had my Aries 2 and HRX the belts, 2 of them in the case of the HRX, were always a source of frustration. If they were not cleaned religiously they not only transmitted motor noise but introduced rumble of their own due to accumulated bumps of dust that can be easily felt but not seen. I've seen and heard TNTs using thread and while I did not have the heart to ask the owners to perform an A/B demonstration, they swear it addressed the problems mentioned. One guy used dental floss. I told him it was good that he didn't use a mint flavored one as it might have made the sound cool and sterile ;)

The mystery to me is how these guys tied the knots so flat. Perhaps they were master scouts.
 

ack

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My motor is sitting on top of a sorbothane sheet - major improvement. When I contacted VPI about the belt they also suggested a silk thread, but I haven't done anything about it yet.
 

garylkoh

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I'm not familiar with the Aries but MiTT has a good point. If the motor is a source of vibrations, putting it on the ceramic cones will result in a low impedance path for the vibrations to sink out of the motor. With many of these t/t with a separate motor, putting a half twist on the belt (so that the motor pulley runs on a different surface of the belt than the platter) may also help. That way, the vibrations from the motor is on a different plane.

I've always wondered of having a rubber belt that is a möbius strip for my turntable, but have not figured a way to make such a belt.
 

MylesBAstor

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My motor is sitting on top of a sorbothane sheet - major improvement. When I contacted VPI about the belt they also suggested a silk thread, but I haven't done anything about it yet.

Why not just get the rim drive? It's in another league and will make one think about belt drives and their sound in another light.
 

ack

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a) Fugly; b) there is still contact with rubber, so I am not sure how it solves the problem. Can you elaborate?
 

naturephoto1

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Why not just get the rim drive? It's in another league and will make one think about belt drives and their sound in another light.

a) Fugly; b) there is still contact with rubber, so I am not sure how it solves the problem. Can you elaborate?

Chris Brady of Teres Audio was a big proponent of belt drive turntables for a long time. After many years, he stopped the manufacture of belt drive turntables. He had implemented Direct Drive for his Certus turntables. But they were and are quite expensive. So, Chris designed and introduced the Rim Drive Verus Motor system. Teres had offered some of the Teres turntables with the Verus Motors but has now decided to only offer in their line the Certus Direct Drive Turntables. Teres still offers the Verus II Coupled Motor Rim drive system.

Here is a paper that Chris has written and is on the Teres website:

http://www.teresaudio.com/manuals/teres_speed_tech.pdf

It may be an expensive alternative at $1790, but you may want to consider the Teres Verus Rim motor system:

http://www.teresaudio.com/verus-motor.html

Rich
 
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MylesBAstor

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a) Fugly; b) there is still contact with rubber, so I am not sure how it solves the problem. Can you elaborate?

I think that Rich's link answers some of your questions :) That said, the rim drive provides much greater speed stability (like a direct drive table but w/o the issue of transfer of noise from the motor) that is manifested in many ways. One hears greater instrumental solidity, harmonic completely, transparency and dynamics. One doesn't appreciate the slipping and grabbing that goes on with rubber belts. In fact, it was Bill Firebaugh who talked about the importance of adding a slight "drag" to the drive system to ensure greater speed stabilty in belt systems. I also think LInn "accidentally" added drag with the metal piece in their drive system intended to "drain" static electricity.

FYI, one advantage of metal platters is the ability to machine them to much tighter tolerances than "plastic" platters.

The rubber belt around the rim drive is essentially there just to isolate the platter from the motor drive--and unlike the rim drives of yesteryear--is replacable when worn so one doesn't get speed variations.
 

mullard88

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Jun 5, 2010
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Hi garylkoh,

I have a DPS turntable and I have experimented with twisting the belt. It improves the sonics beautifully on some lps but not on all lps.
 

microstrip

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Guess you could try the Forsell tweak: Silk thread.
Although this post is some months old I will add a note - Forsell only used a silk thread in the Air Force turntable that had a very large and heavy flywheel that was noise free and frictionless, as it also used an air bearing. Later he changed the silk to to dental floss, that I still use in my Forsell turntable. It should not be used with the Aries 3, that relies on the belt to smooth the motor noise.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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New York City
Chris Brady of Teres Audio was a big proponent of belt drive turntables for a long time. After many years, he stopped the manufacture of belt drive turntables. He had implemented Direct Drive for his Certus turntables. But they were and are quite expensive. So, Chris designed and introduced the Rim Drive Verus Motor system. Teres had offered some of the Teres turntables with the Verus Motors but has now decided to only offer in their line the Certus Direct Drive Turntables. Teres still offers the Verus II Coupled Motor Rim drive system.

Here is a paper that Chris has written and is on the Teres website:

http://www.teresaudio.com/manuals/teres_speed_tech.pdf

It may be an expensive alternative at $1790, but you may want to consider the Teres Verus Rim motor system:

http://www.teresaudio.com/verus-motor.html

Rich

Rich: There is one thing that strikes me as different between the Teres and VPI solution. Teres has the rim drive directly driving the platter; VPI uses two motors to drive the rim drive/flywheel via a belt, ensuring another layer of separation of motor noise.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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www.genesisloudspeakers.com
I have a DPS turntable and I have experimented with twisting the belt. It improves the sonics beautifully on some lps but not on all lps.

Try using the other face of the rubber belt. When you give the belt a half twist, if you did it without removing the belt from the platter, you are using the inner face of the belt on the platter, and the outer face on the motor spindle. Try doing the opposite. Since the dps has a resistive bearing and a high-torque motor, it should make a substantial difference. Because of the way that rubber belts are manufactured, the two faces of the belt has different properties.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Rich: There is one thing that strikes me as different between the Teres and VPI solution. Teres has the rim drive directly driving the platter; VPI uses two motors to drive the rim drive/flywheel via a belt, ensuring another layer of separation of motor noise.

I love it when history repeats itself. The VPI uses the belt/idler approach of the TD124 and the Teres the direct idler approach of the TD124's rival the Garrard 301.
 

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