2.1 Desktop Audio System

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

Hello Vincent,

My PC has S/PDIF TOSLINK and COAX out. I'd like to setup a 2.1 desktop system with active monitors and active sub. The component that I need to tie this system together would have a DAC (for the S/PDIF input) / preamp (for volume control) / active crossover (so I can customize the crossover frequency to my speakers) and RCA mono sub out and RCA stereo out for the 2.0s.

Does this kind of hardware exist? I'd like to avoid having three separate components (DAC / preamp / crossover) for desk clutter and I'd like to avoid an integrated amp so the power amp doesn't sit there unused. I'd like to use active monitors / sub because that's where it seems like high end audio is these days. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 22, 2011

jfw said:
Hello Vincent,

My PC has S/PDIF TOSLINK and COAX out. I'd like to setup a 2.1 desktop system with active monitors and active sub. The component that I need to tie this system together would have a DAC (for the S/PDIF input) / preamp (for volume control) / active crossover (so I can customize the crossover frequency to my speakers) and RCA mono sub out and RCA stereo out for the 2.0s.

Does this kind of hardware exist? I'd like to avoid having three separate components (DAC / preamp / crossover) for desk clutter and I'd like to avoid an integrated amp so the power amp doesn't sit there unused. I'd like to use active monitors / sub because that's where it seems like high end audio is these days. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

I'm not Vincent, but active monitors will have active crossovers and amplifier built in, so all you'll need is a DAC/Preamp. Budget?

Tim

Vincent Kars · Nov 22, 2011

Desktop, so it must be small.
You might have a look at studio monitors by brands like Adam, Genelec, Klein & Hummel, Event Opal, etc.. All
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveSpeakers.htm
http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17
http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=4109

Drive it with a DAC with volume control and headphone out.
An example: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1-complete-stereo-solution

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

Thanks for the reply Phelonious,

With active monitors I know they have crossovers built in (for it's own woofer and tweeter) but what I want is for the audio signal that's fed into the active monitor to already be filtered to whatever frequency range I give the active monitors, same with the sub. This way the active monitor wouldn't play the frequency range I dedicate to the sub and vice versa. If what you mean by "active monitors will have active crossovers" means that the monitor would have a sub out with configurable crossover frequency that's interesting, but I would like to not have to rely on a monitor's crossover to feed the sub. I know some subs have crossover filters with outs to mids / highs, but likewise I don't want any speakers to have outs. I would like to use RCA sub in which expects a sub only audio signal.

The budget for the component(s) that will fit my purpose (DAC / preamp / crossover) is < ~1,000 USD. I'd like to get this in one box if possible.

For reference, I've been looking at the following components: V-DAC?II / preamp(?) / miniDSP / KRK VXT8 / HSU STF-2

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

Thanks for the reply Vincent,

The problem with the DAC1 is that it has no sub out / configurable crossover so I would still have to get a crossover after the DAC1 to feed into the sub / monitors. Size of the system is not important. I can use full size amps etc... and would like to at some point grow it into a living room type system.

amirm · Nov 22, 2011

You are in no-man's land here. I know, I have searched for this often and can't find it.

The only answer if you are willing to put up with huge footprint is to buy home theater products. Any standard processor will have DACs built in and of course, full suite of cross overs and such. You will be wasting the rest of the channels but that is the only way to do it. When you go to music systems, all of that crossover logic and such is lost.

The DIY route with minDSP and such will also work although I have not dug into it.

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 22, 2011

What Amir said. Personally, I'd go with the least expensive good midfi AV receiver I could find with preamp outs, because if all you're using is the pre for two channels and the sub crossover, the law of diminishing returns is going to be brutal. Maybe the least expensive Yamaha Aventage?

Tim

RBFC · Nov 22, 2011

You could probably find a used receiver that would save you a few hundred dollars.

Lee

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

amirm said:
You are in no-man's land here. I know, I have searched for this often and can't find it.

Phelonious Ponk said:
What Amir said.

Hmm, I was afraid of that. It seems like such a waste of extra channels / power amp to use a HT pre-pro / receiver. I'd assume that most of those don't have highly configurable crossovers. I'd like my money to go into high quality components instead of all the features of a HT piece.

I guess I could use separate components, probably a [DAC / volume control] combo and a crossover after that. It's the separate crossover step where I think I'd loose quality. It would be cool if miniDSP made an optical in with a nice DAC per channel out and master volume control. That way the crossover / volume control could be all digital with the DAC as the last step. Hopefully some high end manufacturers will satisfy this market someday.

Thanks for the help!

Vincent Kars · Nov 22, 2011

jfw said:
Hopefully some high end manufacturers will satisfy this market someday.

Have a look at DEQX or Trinnov.

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

After looking further into miniDSP I found this "Digital input crossover configuration" on http://www.minidsp.com/applications/stereo-2way-xover

Is it possible to set the volume of the outgoing optical signal on a PC? If it was, would there be any resolution issues of DSP after lowering the volume since all the bits to be worked on are packed so close together (lower res)? I guess that Frankenstein kit is just what I need except I'd also need a potentiometer to modify volume digitally in real time rather than set and forget.

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

Vincent Kars said:
Have a look at DEQX or Trinnov.

I don't fully understand the features they offer but I assume you're talking about things like the "DEQX HDP-Express" and the "Trinnov Doremi Pegase". While they seem like nice HT pre-pros they have the problem of overkill both in terms of features and price. I don't foresee going beyond 2.1 channels for my system. It seems that the market is strongly pushing me towards a 2.0 system since a crossover would not be necessary and I could use any number of [ DAC / Volume control ] combo units available for the consumer market.

Vincent Kars · Nov 22, 2011

Is it possible to set the volume of the outgoing optical signal on a PC?

It is.
Just multiply the value by .5
1111111111111111
0000000011111111 reduced by halve and indeed you lose resolution.
You must apply dither as well.

The miniDSP runs at 48 kHz.
If you plan to play Hires something to keep in mind as everything must be down sampled to 48.

A 4 channel sound card and software like the Thuneau - The Frequency Allocator might be an alternative.

Bit more on this forum:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3978-Bi-amping-Maggies&highlight=maggies

mojave · Nov 22, 2011

My desktop system has been 2.1 for about 7 years now. You can use an internal 5.1 or 7.1 channel sound card. The Lynx TWO-B has been highly recommended by many. Cheaper alternatives are a 7.1 sound card from Auzentech or HT Omega.

If you want to go external, I would highly recommend the Steinberg MR816x (firewire) or the new UR824 (usb). I own the MR816x and it sounds wonderful. It uses the same clocking system as the Weiss DAC202. The Steinberg products are made by Yamaha in Japan.

Once you have a multi-channel audio device it is easy to perform the crossover, volume control, distance settings, and even EQ with software. I use JRiver Media Center as my playback software. With it you can set your output to 5.1 and then use the Room Correction and Bass Management to apply distance settings to speakers/sub and determine your crossover frequencies. It is very flexible and lets you apply different slopes to the high pass and low pass for best integration. If you want to, you can also use JRiver's parametric equalizer for EQing the bass. I output directly to my amps so I use JRiver's internal volume control

You have a good choice for subwoofer. I've had two of the original Hsu VTF-2 subs and recently was using a Hsu VTF-1 sub with my desktop system. They sound very good for music. Hsu is having a Black Friday sale going on Thursday and Friday. Right now I have two dual opposed subs with a total of 4 15" drivers sitting under my desk.

I am using JRiver to apply a Linkwitz Transform to extend the low end.

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

Vincent Kars said:
Just multiply the value by .5 ... and indeed you lose resolution ... The miniDSP runs at 48 kHz

Loosing resolution on the S/PDIF out (multiply by .31 rounding loss also) before doing anything is too much loss as far as I'm concerned, especially if listening at low to moderate volumes.

Vincent Kars said:
A 4 channel sound card and software like the Thuneau - The Frequency Allocator might be an alternative.

I thought about that, but the problem is I want to use an external DAC (would require 2 of them) and I don't know if it can do static crossover > dynamic synced volume control (loss) > output to dual S/PDIF (sync issues?). If it couldn't do dynamic synced volume control I would have to use two preamps and manually sync the sub / monitors when changing volume.

I'm not sure but I think it would be best to have the volume control placed after all digital processes are complete, on the analog signal going to the sub / monitors...

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

mojave said:
You can use an internal 5.1 or 7.1 channel sound card ... If you want to go external ... Once you have a multi-channel audio device it is easy to perform the crossover, volume control, distance settings, and even EQ with software ... With it you can set your output to 5.1 ...

The way I thought of my system is that the PC would provide S/PDIF out and from there I could stay firmly within the audiophile / traditional audio industry realm and avoid USB / Firewire (audio industry / computer hybrid solutions). Maybe that's something I need to get over. For recording industry equipment, definitely most components are "computer enabled", but maybe for just audiophile playback it would be best to stay away from internal sound cards (EM noise from PC) or audio interfaces with Firewire / USB inputs (requires computer and takes up more CPU resources). Maybe external DAC isolation is not that important and I should just buy into the fact that the computer will be at the center of audio systems going forward. I would like to avoid all the extra inputs and recording focus of most audio interfaces just because I don't want to buy something I'll never use. Another issue within using software DSP tied to a media player is what happens if your audio doesn't go through that media player. For example say you're listening to audio through your JRiver Media Center, you close that down then watch a youtube video? The flash audio doesn't get any of the DSP...

As far as 2.1 from what I've seen most PC audio hardware supports 2 / 5.1 / 7.1 etc... channels, I've never seen 2.1, so you'd have to run 5.1 minimum to get the sub signal. Making sure that the unused center / rears are not getting any special filtering taking away from the two stereo fronts.

mojave said:
Hsu is having a Black Friday sale going on Thursday and Friday. Right now I have two dual opposed subs with a total of 4 15" drivers sitting under my desk. I am using JRiver to apply a Linkwitz Transform to extend the low end.

Thanks for the info on the HSU sale, I might have to take advantage... That sounds like quite the desktop system you've got there, do you crank up the volume?

JackD201 · Nov 22, 2011

Hi jfw,

Personally I'd rather allow the actives to roll off mechanically and have the sub come in for support so a crossover is not a big issue for me. That's just me though and I can see how doing this might pose some problems on bass heavy material.

Here's a thought. I've been playing with my tiny Adam Artist 3s on my very cramped desk top. If I wanted to add a subwoofer, the solution would actually be pretty simple. Most active monitors have line outputs (usually used for slaving). Connect these to a sub or even two subs and you get an instant 2.1 or 2.2 system. Just let the subwoofer filters do the job.

Here's the tricky part. In my experience in studio and at home, I've yet to come by near field monitors that could compete with their near field performance when listened to from mid field distances. They just no longer sound right to me. The sound field just falls apart at the seams.

Listening to mid field monitors at near field is an instant recipe for a migraine for me....just too hot and again the sound field falls apart. In any case, I hope you can find monitors that you will be able to transition as planned.

Regards,

Jack

jfw · Nov 22, 2011

Hello Jack,

JackD201 said:
Personally I'd rather allow the actives to roll off mechanically and have the sub come in for support so a crossover is not a big issue for me. That's just me though and I can see how doing this might pose some problems on bass heavy material.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but to allow the active monitors to mechanically roll off would not only mess with the mids but also overhype what lows it could output because both it and the sub would be outputting the overlapping lows (phase issues?). Even more important for the sub is that it have a filtered frequency range because I want to use a sub in and bypass the sub's filter. Ideally, I'd like to run the monitors with pure crossover (woofer / tweeter / no low filtering) and the sub without any filtering. Then feed the sub / monitors with audio signals which have been crossover filtered to my specs. I'd also like some kind of graphic interface with zooming / numbers to configure the crossover to really stick the X in the right spot for whatever monitor / sub combo I end up getting instead of some pots labeled 0 to 10 or something like that.

JackD201 said:
Here's a thought. I've been playing with my tiny Adam Artist 3s on my very cramped desk top. If I wanted to add a subwoofer, the solution would actually be pretty simple. Most active monitors have line outputs (usually used for slaving). Connect these to a sub or even two subs and you get an instant 2.1 or 2.2 system. Just let the subwoofer filters do the job.

While an easy solution, that's one thing I'd like to avoid. As I mentioned I'd like to use the sub(s) without filtering, just clean sub in and actives getting only mids / highs. Also, I'd like to go from the crossover straight into the monitors / sub rather than chaining them in a line of crossover > monitor > sub or crossover > sub > monitor. Maybe this is getting too picky?

JackD201 said:
I've yet to come by near field monitors that could compete with their near field performance when listened to from mid field distances. They just no longer sound right to me. The sound field just falls apart at the seams. Listening to mid field monitors at near field is an instant recipe for a migraine for me....just too hot and again the sound field falls apart.

Hmm, that's another consideration to keep in mind. I seem to be focused on active monitors because it seems that that's where high end audio is going these days. Seems like the last 15 years or so have seen a massive shift from passive to active speakers. I wouldn't mind an integrated amp and passive monitors / (passive / active) sub, but the more I read, the more good stuff seems to be in active monitors. Maybe I should just stick to the old standby of integrated amp and mid field passives? It almost seems like buying into an obsolete system...

JackD201 · Nov 22, 2011

It looks like you're a candidate for an external active system. As mentioned by others the MiniDSP, DEQX and Bheringers would fit the bill as both DACs and Active Digital XOs. There are many affordable multichannel amps around like those from Outlaw or ATI. Many compact stereo and mono amps as well. You'll probably have to build your own loudspeakers though for your desktop sub/sat application that or buy a passive 2-way that you like that has two sets of binding posts then bypass the passive crossovers (more paying for stuff you wont use

).

For mid field two active packages come immediately to mind, that of Linkwitz and that of Emerald Physics. They come with their own active XOs. You just need to supply the amps. In the case of the Linkwitz you'll have to provide the DAC too. I believe it uses an analog active crossover. The speakers are available in kit form or assembled.

jfw · Nov 23, 2011

JackD201 said:
It looks like you're a candidate for an external active system.

I'm unfamiliar with the term "external active system". Could you explain?

JackD201 said:
As mentioned by others the MiniDSP, DEQX and Bheringers would fit the bill as both DACs and Active Digital XOs.

MiniDSP - I would have to get the miniDSP / miniDIGI combo for digital in, but it doesn't have dynamic volume control on the audio out so I'd have to get a preamp. Questionable DAC quality and low resolution 48kHz sampling rate. Nice interface. The closest DIY computer related component that does what I want.
DEQX - Too many channels and geared towards home theater correction. Overkill to use simply as a DAC / crossover. No precision interface for crossover configuration(?).
Behringer - Digital input is limited to AES/EBU. I only have S/PDIF TOSLINK or COAX. On entry level it has dials for crossover configuration, not highly accurate. It has low / high / sub outputs but what I need is low / high combined and separate signal for the sub only.

JackD201 said:
There are many affordable multichannel amps around like those from Outlaw or ATI. Many compact stereo and mono amps as well. You'll probably have to build your own loudspeakers though for your desktop sub/sat application that or buy a passive 2-way that you like that has two sets of binding posts then bypass the passive crossovers (more paying for stuff you wont use ).

Another reason I want to go with active monitors and active subs is because their amps have been built with those specific drivers in mind so I'd like to stay away from amps as separate components. As long as the active monitors don't filter anything out (just internal crossover for 2 or 3 way), and the sub has a sub in (no filtering). Both of these configurations are very common if not the norm so I have no problem there. I think the main problem I have is that for the DAC, preamp, crossover combo component I'm looking for everything either has too many features (HT pre-pro / live performance industry) or too few (no preamp / no crossover with sub out).

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