All that jazz

mep · Nov 10, 2011

If anyone wonders where the drum solo in Chicago’s rendition of “I’m a Man” on their first LP came from, check out the drum solo that opens up “A Night in Tunisia” by Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Cowbells and all, this drum solo had to serve as inspiration for Chicago. It’s so similar to me that it’s spooky almost.

Speaking of Chicago’s first LP that was self-titled, let’s talk about that for a minute. I’m sure most of you know that Chicago’s original name was “The Chicago Transit Authority.” The real Chicago Transit Authority didn’t take too kindly to that and Chicago was forced to change their name. Chicago dumped the “Transit Authority” part of their name and the rest is history.

Now on to their first LP. The version of “I’m a Man” by Chicago is for me the definitive version of this song. I like their version much better than the Spencer Davis Group. The original Columbia LP sounds outstanding. It’s much better than the MOFI reissue in so many ways. “I’m a Man” was always a reference piece to play for people. This song sounds “Live.” The drum solo is great and will showcase your system or show up some weaknesses. I always thought it was original.

Now go listen to “A Night in Tunisia.” This is a very well recorded album and the LP I have is just a sealed version that I bought from my local record store for around $15.00. I’m not going to try and tell you that the recording is as good as Chicago’s first LP, but it’s damn good none the less. But more importantly, listen to it and tell me that the drum solo that opens the LP doesn’t sound damn close to what Chicago laid down on “I’m a Man.”

fas42 · Nov 10, 2011

Speaking of such matters, the friend pointed out that the drum solo that segues into Rasputin on the Boney M LP is a straight "pinch" of an effort by a highly regarded, English I think, drummer. I can't remember the chap's name, but we could listen to the "original" straight after, and it certainly sounded like "copy and paste" effort to me ...

Frank

DonH50 · Nov 10, 2011

Don't forget the "imitation and flattery" cliche... It is hard to NOT quote something you've heard before in a solo, at least IME. We learn by doing, and in jazz it's by imitating the masters. Somebody thinks something I play is worthy of busting their buns to copy, great!

There's probably a lot more "copy and paste" than people realize, all the way back to the classics. And, a lot of it is likely done by composers/players who don't even realize they heard it before.

NorthStar · Nov 10, 2011

jazdoc · Nov 11, 2011

Steely Dan borrowed the riff of Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the opening of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number"

mep · Nov 11, 2011

jazdoc said:
Steely Dan borrowed the riff of Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the opening of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number"

At least they just borrowed it instead of ripping it off.

Johnny Vinyl · Nov 11, 2011

DonH50 said:
Don't forget the "imitation and flattery" cliche... It is hard to NOT quote something you've heard before in a solo, at least IME. We learn by doing, and in jazz it's by imitating the masters. Somebody thinks something I play is worthy of busting their buns to copy, great!

There's probably a lot more "copy and paste" than people realize, all the way back to the classics. And, a lot of it is likely done by composers/players who don't even realize they heard it before.

I am absolutely convinced that this has been the case on many an occasion! With all of the music being written and recorded it's impossible to hear every single track, and since music follows a pattern/structure/chord sequence, duplication (however unbeknownst) is highly likely.

Soundoctor · Nov 26, 2011

Hmmm, I've waited what, 30 years to hear that mentioned. That ripoff was the ORIGINAL reason why I did't like them, although they got um... better with time.

MylesBAstor · Nov 27, 2011

And how much did Billy Joel rip off

And people often accused Dylan of ripping off other folk singers. Guess it's how you look at it. Some view music as a progression embellishing on others work over the centuries.

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 27, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
And how much did Billy Joel rip off And people often accused Dylan of ripping off other folk singers. Guess it's how you look at it. Some view music as a progression embellishing on others work over the centuries.

This is the history of music. Those who view it otherwise view it unrealistically.

Tim

JackD201 · Nov 27, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Some view music as a progression embellishing on others work over the centuries.

Like Air Supply borrowing from Tchaikovsky?

Johnny Vinyl · Nov 27, 2011

Is it any different than singers? Look at Whitney Houston. When she came on the scene her vocal interpretations were considered fresh and new. Within a short period after that you had Mariah Carey trying to emulate her (despite her protestations) and many have followed since.

mep · Dec 17, 2011

Mingus at the Bohemia

So I’m walking down the street as fast as my get-away sticks can go and I dart into my favorite record store to see what *new* wax they have available for my purchasing pleasure. I’m on a mission because it’s Friday and the record store is a side trip on the many destinations associated with my Susie Homemaker round of grocery shopping. I still have stops at Menards, Sam’s Club, CVS, Starbucks, the local Marsh grocery store, and my favorite Thai Restaurant for take-out before I can head home which helps explain the pace I’m walking at.

So I’m eyeballing the jazz section and I see a Mingus LP that grabs my attention. It’s a sealed copy of Mingus at the Bohemia with special guest Max Roach. This is a 1955 recording and it will blow your socks off (I’m still looking for mine). If it doesn’t blow your socks off, you are either barefoot or you need to throw your stereo out the window and start over.

I really didn’t know what to expect when I bought this LP. It’s on Debut Records which I had never heard of. I sort of like the funky red label on the LP though. I give the record a spin on my trusty VPI RCM and plop it on my table. I cued up the first cut on Side A and sat down to listen. This is a live recording and I just can’t imagine that it could sound any better. The drum sound that was captured on the last cut of Side A, Percussion Discussion with Max Roach is just incredible. To think they captured this quality of drum sound in 1955 should shame most modern recording engineers. Some of the snare hits sound so real and have so much power they will make you involuntarily blink your eyes. If it doesn’t make you involuntarily blink your eyes on your stereo, remember what I said earlier about throwing your stereo out the window. And you should you decide to chuck your stereo system out the window, do call Uncle Mark first in case you have anything that I want so I can stand outside your window and catch it on the way down.

In summary, I find this to be an incredible sounding LP that contains my kind of jazz. Simply a wonderful find that I’m glad I bought.

andy_c · Dec 17, 2011

Thanks for the tip about this album! Just ordered the CD from Amazon. They have it for $9.03, or you can get the MP3 download for $9.49 LOL.

jazdoc · Dec 17, 2011

All of Mingus' Candid recording are special. Sometimes the Mosaic reissue of his collected Candid recordings shows up on Ebay (there are 3 sets there as I type).

Some of those mid-50's recording are amongst the best sounding, especially with a dedicated mono cartridge.

Thanks for sharing your excitement!

mep · Dec 17, 2011

jazdoc said:
All of Mingus' Candid recording are special. Sometimes the Mosaic reissue of his collected Candid recordings shows up on Ebay (there are 3 sets there as I type).

Some of those mid-50's recording are amongst the best sounding, especially with a dedicated mono cartridge.

Thanks for sharing your excitement!

One other thing I forgot to mention; on the back of the LP cover at the bottom are the following words: 33 1/3 RPM 99% Reproduction of Hi-Fi Tape Sound

And you know what? In the case of this LP, it's more than just a slogan.

Phelonious Ponk · Dec 18, 2011

mep said:
So I’m walking down the street as fast as my get-away sticks can go and I dart into my favorite record store to see what *new* wax they have available for my purchasing pleasure. I’m on a mission because it’s Friday and the record store is a side trip on the many destinations associated with my Susie Homemaker round of grocery shopping. I still have stops at Menards, Sam’s Club, CVS, Starbucks, the local Marsh grocery store, and my favorite Thai Restaurant for take-out before I can head home which helps explain the pace I’m walking at.

So I’m eyeballing the jazz section and I see a Mingus LP that grabs my attention. It’s a sealed copy of Mingus at the Bohemia with special guest Max Roach. This is a 1955 recording and it will blow your socks off (I’m still looking for mine). If it doesn’t blow your socks off, you are either barefoot or you need to throw your stereo out the window and start over.

I really didn’t know what to expect when I bought this LP. It’s on Debut Records which I had never heard of. I sort of like the funky red label on the LP though. I give the record a spin on my trusty VPI RCM and plop it on my table. I cued up the first cut on Side A and sat down to listen. This is a live recording and I just can’t imagine that it could sound any better. The drum sound that was captured on the last cut of Side A, Percussion Discussion with Max Roach is just incredible. To think they captured this quality of drum sound in 1955 should shame most modern recording engineers. Some of the snare hits sound so real and have so much power they will make you involuntarily blink your eyes. If it doesn’t make you involuntarily blink your eyes on your stereo, remember what I said earlier about throwing your stereo out the window. And you should you decide to chuck your stereo system out the window, do call Uncle Mark first in case you have anything that I want so I can stand outside your window and catch it on the way down.

In summary, I find this to be an incredible sounding LP that contains my kind of jazz. Simply a wonderful find that I’m glad I bought.

Thanks for the tip, Mark; Mingus was a giant.

As an aside, just last Sunday, I stood less than six feet away from an actual snare drum (and the rest of the kit). My friend Ray can deliver a pretty good rim shot, but it didn't make me involuntarily blink my eyes. So think twice before you throw your kit out the window folks, and check the lawn below. Mark may be down there with a net!

Tim

fas42 · Dec 18, 2011

Phelonious Ponk said:
As an aside, just last Sunday, I stood less than six feet away from an actual snare drum (and the rest of the kit). My friend Ray can deliver a pretty good rim shot, but it didn't make me involuntarily blink my eyes. So think twice before you throw your kit out the window folks, and check the lawn below. Mark may be down there with a net!

Tim

Please don't take this as a cheap shot! Anyway, I'm just wondering how much the condition of one's hearing affects the way one reacts to intense, transient sounds. I know that I would have a similar reaction to Mark to such types of sounds, as, for example, I find a live drum kit next to me to be quite an overwhelming acoustic barrage, and I also know I can still pick up an 18kHz tone; not brilliantly, but definitely it registers.

Or perhaps it is more a case of being accustomed to that type and level of sound; just wondering ...

Frank

Phelonious Ponk · Dec 18, 2011

fas42 said:
Please don't take this as a cheap shot! Anyway, I'm just wondering how much the condition of one's hearing affects the way one reacts to intense, transient sounds. I know that I would have a similar reaction to Mark to such types of sounds, as, for example, I find a live drum kit next to me to be quite an overwhelming acoustic barrage, and I also know I can still pick up an 18kHz tone; not briliiantly, but definitely it registers.

Or perhaps it is more a case of being accustomed to that type and level of sound; just wondering ...

Frank

I can hear tones up to 14khz, though I think, realistically, my hearing starts rolling off at about 12khz. But I suspect it's the latter. I'm pretty accustomed to standing close to a drum kit. And Ray, the only drummer I've played with for the past 20 years or so, also plays with really good dynamics and control. Drummers who are technically very good but lousy at volume control are as common as rain in England. The guy who can play with great dynamics and take it waaaaay down when it needs to go there, a rare joy. I'm lucky to play with one of them.

Tim

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