How fussy are current classical recording engineers?

fas42 · Oct 30, 2011

I just got a bit of a shock: listened to a 2010 CD by Harmonia Mundi USA of Bartok violin duos borrowed from the library, multiple short snippets of musical exercises, and the variation in quality between successive tracks was amazing. It went from harsh, just acceptable string tone, to beautiful sweet resonance from track to track, every couple of minutes or so. I felt I could time to the minute how long the AD converters and the rest of the recording chain had been warmed up prior to doing a particular take.

Now this is supposed to be a better label, on a recording done a little over a year ago -- is this representative of the sloppiness of sound engineering at the moment, or would this be just a one off?

Frank

NorthStar · Oct 30, 2011

Frank, Harmonia Mundi ain't the last bastion on good quality Classical recordings;
they certainly have some poor sounding ones for sure, a few...

I much prefer Channel Classics for consistency on good quality Classical recordings.

fas42 · Oct 30, 2011

Bob, I can understand poorer ones from earlier years, but this is absolutely current. The CD is in a full fancy presentation case, a significant booklet inserted, so a bit of money was spent here, as well as getting the best photo shots of the players and instruments. So why wasn't the time spent in the studio to get the recording as clean as possible? With classical recording struggling badly anyway, surely the motivation should be there to get the quality right!

Frank

NorthStar · Oct 30, 2011

Frank, I have several great looking covers (hard cardboard with beautiful pictures) from some recent Harmonia Mundi Classical and Opera recordings, and the sound quality on some of them is terrible!

Don't ask me, I didn't do those recordings lol.

NorthStar · Oct 30, 2011

But listen carefully, and you might find some oddities on the mics' positionings and quality of those mics. Plus a whole lot more... including the final mix.

fas42 · Oct 30, 2011

So the label is now a problem child: I noticed sloppiness on the start of tracks several times without even trying, digital switching glitches they hadn't bothered to silence. Perhaps glamourising the performers is everything these days, the music rendering comes a sorry second.

Which carries over to other labels perhaps. A friend brought over a CD of a current, young, glammed up violinist, from EMI I think, and dear, oh, dear, how thin and lacklustre the sound and performance was! Not a good time to be in the classical music game, methinks ...

Frank

NorthStar · Oct 31, 2011

Not a big fan of EMI Classics either (some recordings are fine, but many others are poor).

I much prefer Deutsche Grammophon for good Classical music recordings.

* Frank, you simply don't know how to pick the right Classical recording labels!

fas42 · Oct 31, 2011

Actually, I getting to think the older the better, and the more obscure the better: try some never heard of before label from deep in the heart of Eastern Europe, a completely unknown conductor, orchestra and soloists, from the 70's or 80's, that you picked up for $1 at an opportunity shop; and it's highly likely to be a superbly entertaining recording ...

Frank

NorthStar · Oct 31, 2011

Ok, share!

MylesBAstor · Oct 31, 2011

LordoftheRingsEE said:
But listen carefully, and you might find some oddities on the mics' positionings and quality of those mics. Plus a whole lot more... including the final mix.

Or they were recorded at different places, different days, even different times of the day make a difference. To wit, when recording the Utah Symphony, the sound in the hall changed when recorded in the AM vs. PM. The reason? It was cold in the AM and the orchestra wore coats and put them on the back of their chairs. By the PM, it had warmed up and no one brought coats

Orb · Oct 31, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Or they were recorded at different places, different days, even different times of the day make a difference. To wit, when recording the Utah Symphony, the sound in the hall changed when recorded in the AM vs. PM. The reason? It was cold in the AM and the orchestra wore coats and put them on the back of their chairs. By the PM, it had warmed up and no one brought coats

Bah I blame it on the musicians wearing their mittens/wool gloves and affecting their playing, the softies

Cheers
Orb

Orb · Oct 31, 2011

LordoftheRingsEE said:
Not a big fan of EMI Classics either (some recordings are fine, but many others are poor).

I much prefer Deutsche Grammophon for good Classical music recordings.

* Frank, you simply don't know how to pick the right Classical recording labels!

I agree EMI Classics can be a big disappointment, even more so when one looks at their catalogue and some of the great conductors/orchestras recorded with poor sound quality

Cheers
Orb

NorthStar · Oct 31, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Or they were recorded at different places, different days, even different times of the day make a difference. To wit, when recording the Utah Symphony, the sound in the hall changed when recorded in the AM vs. PM. The reason? It was cold in the AM and the orchestra wore coats and put them on the back of their chairs. By the PM, it had warmed up and no one brought coats

You're absolutely right Myles. ...And that's another reason which is part of "Plus a whole lot more..."

* A full Classical Orchestra is not like recording a simple Jazz or Blues band with four or five guys.
...Or a Rock band with a heavy hand on a 24/48 tracks mixing console and all that dynamic compression.

But there are many magnificent Classical music recordings (Orchestral, smaller ensembles, solo piano, etc.); from Reference Recordings, Deutsche Grammophon, Channel Classics, Sony Classical, ...to name a few.

Classical music is powerful, grandiose, emotional at a higher spiritual level & dimension, ...so it is essential to pursue not only the Symphonies, Operas, that we like, but also the good quality recordings of the best engineers from the best labels.

And what you just mentioned above, good engineers know that, and it takes that magic moment too for all the musicians and conductor to deliver a great performance.

Like anything else in life, the greatest quality values (recordings) are not so easy to get by, and you have to work harder at searching for and maintaining their continuity.

Bruce B · Oct 31, 2011

What I don't like is the presentation given by the surround titles from 2L
You are sitting in the middle of the orchestra, as if you were the conductor or one of the performers. They are great sonically, but I can't stand to listen to them.

The best I've heard are from Channel and Pentatone.

mep · Oct 31, 2011

fas42 said:
So the label is now a problem child: I noticed sloppiness on the start of tracks several times without even trying, digital switching glitches they hadn't bothered to silence. Perhaps glamourising the performers is everything these days, the music rendering comes a sorry second.

Which carries over to other labels perhaps. A friend brought over a CD of a current, young, glammed up violinist, from EMI I think, and dear, oh, dear, how thin and lacklustre the sound and performance was! Not a good time to be in the classical music game, methinks ...

Frank

What happened to the Evelyn Woodhouse "No bad Recordings" theory of yours? I thought in your world there was no such thing as a bad recording, just gear that wasn't well sorted out or properly fussed over.

RBFC · Oct 31, 2011

Bruce B said:
What I don't like is the presentation given by the surround titles from 2L
You are sitting in the middle of the orchestra, as if you were the conductor or one of the performers. They are great sonically, but I can't stand to listen to them.

The best I've heard are from Channel and Pentatone.

Agree about the 2L stuff. I actually prefer to listen to the stereo versions of Divertimenti, etc. because of the exaggerated surround effect.

The mentioned labels are usually very good indeed. I'll add some of the better BIS discs as well. Another stunner is the Melba Recordings Ring Cycle by Wagner. Only the off-stage intended effects are directed to the surrounds, and the rest is ambience.

Lee

microstrip · Oct 31, 2011

Orb said:
I agree EMI Classics can be a big disappointment, even more so when one looks at their catalogue and some of the great conductors/orchestras recorded with poor sound quality
Cheers
Orb

Orb,

I have many recordings of EMI Classics and although a few are poor, most of them are very good or even excellent - e.g. the EMI Classics Malher Symphonies conducted by Simon Rattle are amongst my best quality recordings.

Something I have learned in classic music reproduction is that most of the time we have to blame our systems not the recording - each time I improved my system the number of poor recordings decreased.

Another aspect is that sometimes what we consider poor quality is just due the acoustics of the playing venue - not all halls have the same acoustics!

Orb · Oct 31, 2011

Micro I agree,
I should had emphasised "can" more in my post

They have some recordings that in theory should be legendary and yet fall short due to the quality, while others are good recordings as you say.
As was mentioned by another I find the Deutsche Grammophon yellow/legends recordings more consistent.
Cheers
Orb

fas42 · Oct 31, 2011

LordoftheRingsEE said:
Ok, share!

Hey, was that just me, or did WBF just go screwy for the last hour or so ??

Aaah, you got me!! Maestro Masters, an overnight label in Oz in '94, Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Vioin and orchestra, Op.35 : Paganini, ditto, Op.6 ; Philharmonia Slavonica, Pantelli, Munich Symphony O., Capac; Ivan Czerkov, violin; recorded ???. Beautiful violin playing, tonality to die for -- Yehudi, go play with some other toys ...

Frank

NorthStar · Oct 31, 2011

Bruce B said:
What I don't like is the presentation given by the surround titles from 2L
You are sitting in the middle of the orchestra, as if you were the conductor or one of the performers. They are great sonically, but I can't stand to listen to them.

The best I've heard are from Channel and Pentatone.

Best seats in a Classical concert hall are usually from row "F" to row "I".
And near the center of course.

So, directly besides the conductor is a No Way Jose,
as this ain't a place to listen to Classical compositions but to conduct!

There is a limit to what a recording engineer can do and must do or should do.
I agree with you Bruce.

How fussy are current classical recording engineers?

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