Applying Powder in Turntable Belts

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

I haven't applied any powder on my o-ring type VPI belt but I had done that to a flat belt of my Ariston RD110 before as suggested by my old buddies. I thought that powder on 0-ring type belts might actually cause them to slip than tighten. Any thoughts?

JackD201 · Oct 25, 2011

It doesn't slip Phil. In fact in time, it's the opposite. With our humidity, powder accumulates in clumps, picks up moisture which then picks up more airborne particulates and the belts becomes bumpy to the touch. The result is rumble like noise. I cleaned up my CA and HRX belts and never ever used powder again.

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

JackD201 said:
It doesn't slip Phil. In fact in time, it's the opposite. With our humidity, powder accumulates in clumps, picks up moisture which then picks up more airborne particulates and the belts becomes bumpy to the touch. The result is rumble like noise. I cleaned up my CA and HRX belts and never ever used powder again.

Ahhh. Good I didn't apply it. Thanks for the tip, Jack.

garylkoh · Oct 25, 2011

JackD201 said:
It doesn't slip Phil. In fact in time, it's the opposite. With our humidity, powder accumulates in clumps, picks up moisture which then picks up more airborne particulates and the belts becomes bumpy to the touch. The result is rumble like noise. I cleaned up my CA and HRX belts and never ever used powder again.

+1

I had heard of audiophiles in Europe and US applying powder, and in Singapore, ended up with the same result as Jack did.

However, I found that Armor-all and Lemon Pledge on the belts made it sound better. But that was on a low-torque motor turntable - the Roksan. High torque designs might get the opposite result.

DonH50 · Oct 25, 2011

Never tried powder. Many years ago when Armor-All and Pledge were suggested we ran an experiment with a Linn and a (higher-torque) TT (forgot the brand). No significant difference on the Linn, but wow/flutter was worse after treatment on the bigger drive. I suspect it was worse on the Linn but small enough difference it did not measure clearly.

Sidenote: powder tends to be abrasive, even if minutely so, and if it gets into bearings can cause long-term problems. It could also conceivably cause scoring of pulleys and platters.

I used to wipe my belts (and pulley/platter) with alcohol now and then to clean them, nothing else.

garylkoh · Oct 25, 2011

Thanks, Don. Intuitively, I would expect it to be worse with a high-torque drive. Great that you measured it. The Linn is not a low-torque design - it's also fairly high torque.

These days, I just wipe down the belts with an acrylic cleaner (Meguire's). I was told that alcohol would dry out the belts.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 25, 2011

garylkoh said:
Thanks, Don. Intuitively, I would expect it to be worse with a high-torque drive. Great that you measured it. The Linn is not a low-torque design - it's also fairly high torque.

These days, I just wipe down the belts with an acrylic cleaner (Meguire's). I was told that alcohol would dry out the belts.

I heard the same thing. I normally just use a damp microfibre cloth about once a month.

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

Thanks, Gary, Don and John for the inputs. I haven't wiped alcohol on my o ring belt but use buds with alcohol to clean the pulley canals and side of the VPI acrylic platter.

microstrip · Oct 25, 2011

I am assuming you are referring to baby powder, that is composed mainly of talc powder. Talk can be used as a lubricant and using it in belts will make them slip even if dusted afterwards. I remember some turntable manufacturers supplied very small glass talk bottles with their turntables.

Talk is know to absorb grease (even grease stain in silk ties

) and I have read that some people apply powder to the belts, dust it and clean with a wet cleaner such as alcohol. The use of talc in belts has been discussed several times in the vinylengine.com forums.

I also know that some people keep belts and rubber accessories in storage in talk powder to protect them from aging effects, but I am not sure of any advantage of this technique.

The good action of lubricant of talk (baby) powder can be very useful to insert long cables in in-wall tubing systems. You put just a little quantity of the powder in one end of the tube and using a vacuum cleaner in the other side of the tube spread it along the tube using moderate aspiration. The first time I used it (to insert a 10m rigid and thick HDMI cable that my electrician considered impossible to insert after several tries) we were astonished how easily the cables could go along the tube with the help of the talc.

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

Thanks for the insights, Micro.

Interesting.

mep · Oct 25, 2011

If you have a direct drive TT, you don't have to worry about any of these issues of belt cleanliness and everything else that plagues belt drive tables. When I had my TNT, I just left the belt alone and it was fine.

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

mep said:
If you have a direct drive TT, you don't have to worry about any of these issues of belt cleanliness and everything else that plagues belt drive tables. When I had my TNT, I just left the belt alone and it was fine.

Well, of course. And I just recall that belts can have a subjective issue as well as to when to have them replaced. I mean how loose is loose to warrant a belt change? Some loose belts can play forever. But changing to a new tight and firm hugging belt does alter the sound. And strange enough, there were times when I felt that a new tight belt sounds brighter than the old loose belt. And of course some belt materials are different than others, stiffness-wise.

mep · Oct 25, 2011

If you check the speed with a strobe disc and the speed is dead-nuts on, I would leave well enough alone. Sometimes we "fix" things until they break.

DonH50 · Oct 25, 2011

Did not have talc in mind (actually, didn't have anything in mind

), but isn't it the same as soapstone? Or close to it... Anyway, talc is perhaps one of if not the softest minerals, so perhaps my comments about scoring and wear are off-base. However, microstrip's comments about it being a lube are spot-on, and highly undesirable for a belt that you don't want to slip. Maybe we should start a rumour about the benefits of graphite powder on belts... )

On the Linn, I just remember it took a while to spin up to speed. This was early 80's before a lot of their modern motor controls were designed. I must backtrack on that too and say I have no idea the actual motor torque.

Some of the early (and later, for all I know) direct-drive TT's had horrible LF noise due to motor "cogging". Better motors and control circuits largely eliminated that issue IIRC.

Off to rehearsal, then trying to beat the snow home (calling for 9" - 17" late tonight through tomorrow). - Don

naturephoto1 · Oct 25, 2011

DonH50 said:
Did not have talc in mind (actually, didn't have anything in mind ), but isn't it the same as soapstone? Or close to it... Anyway, talc is perhaps one of if not the softest minerals, so perhaps my comments about scoring and wear are off-base. However, microstrip's comments about it being a lube are spot-on, and highly undesirable for a belt that you don't want to slip. Maybe we should start a rumour about the benefits of graphite powder on belts... )

On the Linn, I just remember it took a while to spin up to speed. This was early 80's before a lot of their modern motor controls were designed. I must backtrack on that too and say I have no idea the actual motor torque.

Some of the early (and later, for all I know) direct-drive TT's had horrible LF noise due to motor "cogging". Better motors and control circuits largely eliminated that issue IIRC.

Off to rehearsal, then trying to beat the snow home (calling for 9" - 17" late tonight through tomorrow). - Don

Talc has a hardness of 1 on the Mohs hardness scale and is regarded as the softest mineral (to the best of my knowledge).

Rich

mep · Oct 25, 2011

naturephoto1 said:
Talc has a hardness of 1 on the Mohs hardness scale and is regarded as the softest mineral (to the best of my knowledge).

Rich

How does it measure on the Larry and Curly scale?

MylesBAstor · Oct 25, 2011

DonH50 said:
Did not have talc in mind (actually, didn't have anything in mind ), but isn't it the same as soapstone? Or close to it... Anyway, talc is perhaps one of if not the softest minerals, so perhaps my comments about scoring and wear are off-base. However, microstrip's comments about it being a lube are spot-on, and highly undesirable for a belt that you don't want to slip. Maybe we should start a rumour about the benefits of graphite powder on belts... )

On the Linn, I just remember it took a while to spin up to speed. This was early 80's before a lot of their modern motor controls were designed. I must backtrack on that too and say I have no idea the actual motor torque.

Some of the early (and later, for all I know) direct-drive TT's had horrible LF noise due to motor "cogging". Better motors and control circuits largely eliminated that issue IIRC.

Off to rehearsal, then trying to beat the snow home (calling for 9" - 17" late tonight through tomorrow). - Don

Actually the talc is meant to prevent the "grabbing" not the slipping of the belt and prevent micro-speed fluctuations in the tt platters speed. This is often heard as improved imaging and solidity

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

Just to expand the belt talk further, has anyone used dental floss (unwaxed) as a TT belt? It was popular here in the 90s and when Dr Forsell came over and demo'ed his Air Reference with dental floss as belt, I tried it on my VPI but I didn't seem to like the effects. And also I guess the fit is not snug as my motor cannot be pulled away like the Forsell's separate motor for a tighter fit.

jadis · Oct 25, 2011

mep said:
If you check the speed with a strobe disc and the speed is dead-nuts on, I would leave well enough alone. Sometimes we "fix" things until they break.

Aside from a strobe, I tend to ultimately relay on my familiarity with my reference cuts on vocals to see if the speed is ok. As long as they sound like they way I know them to be from way back, I tend not to change the belt.

JackD201 · Oct 25, 2011

mep said:
How does it measure on the Larry and Curly scale?

Better than on the Short and Curly scale.

Applying Powder in Turntable Belts

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