Finding balance!

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 8, 2011

As I come out of the economic turmoil that has been present these last few years, my thoughts are slowly gearing up for a year in 2012 that will allow some upgrades. I see people having all tube-gear and/or all solid-state, and I'm wondering if a combination of the two offers a better balance. Would an all tube setup colour the sound too much? Would an all solid-state system offer none and be too matter of fact?

If I incorporate a tube component, at what stage of the chain will I notice a bigger impact? Since I'm a vinyl spinner primarily I would think it to be a phonostage as its closer to the source (TT), or does the impact of it now having to travel through a preamp/amp/integrated offset it? If so I suppose I would be better off with a tube amp/pre/IA and a solid stage phonostage or perhaps a tubebuffer of some sort.. What are your experiences with regard to this?

mep · Oct 8, 2011

John- you are asking questions that will open up Pandora's box. You will get zero agreement on the questions you are asking. You need to have some buddies that have different gear come over and bring some of their gear so you can hear it in your system and form some opinions for yourself.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 10, 2011

mep said:
John- you are asking questions that will open up Pandora's box. You will get zero agreement on the questions you are asking. You need to have some buddies that have different gear come over and bring some of their gear so you can hear it in your system and form some opinions for yourself.

Your point being? (disagreement seems to thrive in most threads here, or discussion of varying opinions to put it more politically correct). I'm not looking for a specific answer necessarily, but only what the experiences with members have been. I'm not in any camp.

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

if you went tube preamp and solid state amps that would give you the best of both worlds

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 10, 2011

Steve Williams said:
if you went tube preamp and solid state amps that would give you the best of both worlds

Is that what you are employing Steve?

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

It was the first thing I did many years ago when I decided to delve into tubes

At that time I had Krell750mcx amps and an Audio Research Ref2 Mk ll preamp. From that point on I enjoyed tube sound and am now all tubes (amp and preamp)

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

BTW, there is a thread here on this very topic. Let me look for it.

caesar · Oct 10, 2011

A lot of people like to balance a more powerful SS amp, which takes better grip of your speaker for dynamic swings in music, with a tubed pre. But you could do the opposite with results that suit your taste. There is an almost infinite number of combinations out there.

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

Here it is

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1545-Tube-or-Solid-State-Pre-Amp-which-did-you-choose

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

caesar said:
A lot of people like to balance a more powerful SS amp, which takes better grip of your speaker for dynamic swings in music, with a tubed pre. But you could do the opposite with results that suit your taste. There is an almost infinite number of combinations out there.

If I had a choice I would do it exactly as I said for the reasons Caesar outlined

Phelonious Ponk · Oct 10, 2011

I have never done this with hifi equipment, but I have owned hybrid guitar amplifiers, both tube pre/SS power and SSpre/Tube power. I think it's relevant because the added harmonic richness that is the stuff of tube tone is huge and obvious in guitar amps. Even when guitarists are running "clean tone" that harmonic content is more obvious than it is in anything but possibly an SET amp running at the edge of its headroom threshold. What I know from owning those amps and playing them in a variety of conditions at a wide range of volumes is that the harmonic content from preamp tubes and from Power tubes is very different. And while, philosophically, I believe the best of both worlds would probably be a tube pre and SS power, to get that tube tone and still have the headroom and driver control of a very powerful amp, I think that tube tone is different...and I think it may be power tube tone that audiophiles treasure. I know this much: In guitar amps, where the character of the tubes is much less subtle, preamp tubes' character, when driven hard, tends to be thinner and grainier. Power tubes are smooth, glassy, big, warm. Even when you drive them much harder than any audiophile hifi system ever would (or at least should).

Then again, maybe the two things have nothing to do with each other.

Tim

Orb · Oct 10, 2011

One very critical aspect to consider John is that there is not an impedance mismatch going with a tube preamp and solid state power amp.
This can happen due to the power amp having say a too low input impedance while the preamp needs more.
As an example Audio Research recommends for their preamps to have 20kohms minimum from power amp, their own power amps have an input impedance of around 150kohms single ended and 300kohms balanced.
There are a fair few solid state power amps that have input impedance of only 10kohms to 20kohms, this will affect perceived sound quality when matched to a tube preamp that needs more.

It should be pretty easy to check the input impedance spec of a power amp, but if in doubt best to make sure and contact the manufacturer.
BTW I am also a supporter of the tube preamp/SS power amp setup.
It depends upon your tolerance but another listening factor for me relates to the noise floor, and this can be harder to deal with in a tube design, resulting in that you can pay more to reduce its affect (better design-engineering-components).
You listen a lot to LP so you may be quite tolerant to this affect, but make sure to listen to the preamp for factors such as this before purchasing, that said there are quite a few tube preamps that can match a very good ss preamp in terms of such specs but it may mean going up the price chain or model a little bit.

Cheers
Orb

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

good points Orb

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 10, 2011

Steve Williams said:
It was the first thing I did many years ago when I decided to delve into tubes

At that time I had Krell750mcx amps and an Audio Research Ref2 Mk ll preamp. From that point on I enjoyed tube sound and am now all tubes (amp and preamp)

I guess as I start the process of upgrading I'll have to consider it all piece by piece and make a buying decision from there. I do like the idea of an all tube system though.

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 10, 2011

Orb said:
One very critical aspect to consider John is that there is not an impedance mismatch going with a tube preamp and solid state power amp.
This can happen due to the power amp having say a too low input impedance while the preamp needs more.
As an example Audio Research recommends for their preamps to have 20kohms minimum from power amp, their own power amps have an input impedance of around 150kohms single ended and 300kohms balanced.
There are a fair few solid state power amps that have input impedance of only 10kohms to 20kohms, this will affect perceived sound quality when matched to a tube preamp that needs more.

It should be pretty easy to check the input impedance spec of a power amp, but if in doubt best to make sure and contact the manufacturer.
BTW I am also a supporter of the tube preamp/SS power amp setup.
It depends upon your tolerance but another listening factor for me relates to the noise floor, and this can be harder to deal with in a tube design, resulting in that you can pay more to reduce its affect (better design-engineering-components).
You listen a lot to LP so you may be quite tolerant to this affect, but make sure to listen to the preamp for factors such as this before purchasing, that said there are quite a few tube preamps that can match a very good ss preamp in terms of such specs but it may mean going up the price chain or model a little bit.

Cheers
Orb

Hi Orb,

Thanks for that most valuable information. One of the preamps I'd like to consider (and should be affordable for me at about 3G's) is the Audio Research SP17 Preamplifier. If I were to go that route, a power amp would have to come the year after, but that's ok. There is version with a phono pre built in, which also has me intrigued. From what I hear, the ARC phonos tend to be quite good.

Steve Williams · Oct 10, 2011

everything ARC is quite good IMO

vinylphilemag · Oct 10, 2011

John72953 said:
Hi Orb,

Thanks for that most valuable information. One of the preamps I'd like to consider (and should be affordable for me at about 3G's) is the Audio Research SP17 Preamplifier. If I were to go that route, a power amp would have to come the year after, but that's ok. There is version with a phono pre built in, which also has me intrigued. From what I hear, the ARC phonos tend to be quite good.

Although I'm aware of its limitations, I'm very happy with my ARC SP-9's phono performance. I'm currently trying to figure out how to add something like an ARC PH-8/LS 27 combo to my set up (A Phono Ref 2 and Ref5 would be even better!).

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 10, 2011

vinylphilemag said:
Although I'm aware of its limitations, I'm very happy with my ARC SP-9's phono performance. I'm currently trying to figure out how to add something like an ARC PH-8/LS 27 combo to my set up (A Phono Ref 2 and Ref5 would be even better!).

Hi Rich, it's actually our conversations about the SP-9 that has me thinking/considering the SP17.

Orb · Oct 10, 2011

Yeah I have not heard the Ph-8 but it has been well received and seems to have good performance in review tests, the LS27 does have very good performance for its price when it comes to noise floor (although it is still there but need to be close to pick up on it) and worthy of consideration by anyone who cannot afford or justify the subtle improvements the Ref-5 brings.

Cheers
Orb

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 10, 2011

devert said:
If you're seeking to "Finding balance," it seems to me, that the first thing you need to do is establish how much power you need to drive your speakers. You can do this with your current set up and a sound level meter or a sound level app. I use the free JL Audio app on my Ipad. Once you determine your peak listening levels, you can use the calculator at:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

to determine how many watts per channel you need.

There are lots of great preamps/amps both tube and SS. I'd also take a look at integrated amps. There will be reviews of three classic tubed integrateds by Art Dudley in the November 2011 issue of Stereophile.

Have fun.

Thank you Sir, and you can be assured I will be having fun.

My room is very small (10x11), so I don't need superhuge amplification, although my Totem Sttaf's only have an 87db efficiency rating. I'm currently driving them with a vintage Pioneer SA-9500II Integrated at 90wpc. And yes, I am also considering another IA.

Finding balance!

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