Graham Phantom II Supreme

jazdoc · Sep 30, 2011

(Again), I wholeheartedly agree with Mike...The MintLP is an essential tool for optimizing vinyl playback. The 'bang for the buck' in terms of more precise, repeatable set up is huge.

This is a real world example where utilizing better measurements correlates well with subjective improvement in sound quality.

rockitman · Sep 30, 2011

jazdoc said:
(Again), I wholeheartedly agree with Mike...The MintLP is an essential tool for optimizing vinyl playback. The 'bang for the buck' in terms of more precise, repeatable set up is huge.

This is a real world example where utilizing better measurements correlates well with subjective improvement in sound quality.

I guess where I'm still confused and in the dark is where on the platter do you position the tractor mirror ? Do I need to eye a line of sight to the pivot point then tape the tractor down ? or does it spin around the spindle freely and doesn't need to be aligned anywhere other than putting it on the spindle ? I just can't figure that part out yet.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

rockitman said:
One last thing...how do you know where to position the tractor mirror on the stabilized platter ?The only thing keeping it in place is the spindle hole in the tractor. Seems to me the tractor can move around if it's not affixed to the platter. What am I missing here ?

sorry if my description of that process was not clear.

(1)--get correct spindle to pivot distance.
(2)--use a wedge of paper to hold the platter from moving.
(3)--place Mint Lp over the spindle hole.
(4)--use the null points and the arc line to make small adjustments and get an exact arc of the stylus matching the line on the Mint Lp. during this step you are moving the Mint Lp as you move the arm/stylus from inner to outer null point to get it closer and closer to dead on the arc line. when it's dead on then go to next step. and this line is very fine and this is where you get the precision.
(5) now use some scotch tape to secure the Mint Lp protractor to the platter. once you've done this a few times, and depending on the platter surface and how slippery it is, you may not need the tape. but to start with i recommend it.
(6) now do the actual alignment at the null points using the parallelogram.

does that now make sense?

rockitman · Sep 30, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
sorry if my description of that process was not clear.

(1)--get correct spindle to pivot distance.
(2)--use a wedge of paper to hold the platter from moving.
(3)--place Mint Lp over the spindle hole.
(4)--use the null points and the arc line to make small adjustments and get an exact arc of the stylus matching the line on the Mint Lp.
(5) now use some scotch tape to secure the Mint Lp protractor to the platter. once you've done this a few times, and depending on the platter surface and how slippery it is, you may not need the tape. but to start with i recommend it.
(6) now do the actual alignment at the null points using the parallelogram.

does that now make sense?

So after you have the pivot to spindle distance set with the tone arm jig or a Feikert jig, you move the tractor and or cart around to get it to trace the arc exactly (overhang distance). Once you are are tracing the arc perfectly, lock the mirror down with tape and then you twist the cart to get the cantilever parallel to the null point lines...Correct ?

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

rockitman said:
So after you have the pivot to spindle distance set with the tone arm jig or a Feikert jig, you move the tractor and or cart around to get it to trace the arc exactly (overhang distance). Once you are are tracing the arc perfectly, lock the mirror down with tape and then you twist the cart to get the cantilever parallel to the null point lines...Correct ?

yes. but obviously you are also moving the cartridge around in the headshell while you are moving the Mint Lp around. it's an interactive adjustment to find precise overhang.

rockitman · Sep 30, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
yes. but obviously you are also moving the cartridge around in the headshell while you are moving the Mint Lp around. it's an interactive adjustment to find precise overhang.

I understand that. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. I have been wondering for quite some time now. One last thing, what is the alignment geometry method used with MintLP: ie: Baerwald/Lofgren A, Lofgren B, Stevenson or none of the above ?

jazdoc · Sep 30, 2011

Here is a link to a series of well illustrated tips on using the protractor on the Mint LP website:

http://mintlp.com/best/bestips.htm

Hope this helps.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

in the interests of full disclosure; i must admit that since i have only Durand tonearms, and Joel lives locally, i have not done any setups for awhile. i'm not bad at it; but Joel is a master particularly with his own tonearm. and i've watched him do it many dozens of times in the last few years. he still uses his spindle to pivot template and the Mint Lp every time.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

rockitman said:
I understand that. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. I have been wondering for quite some time now. One last thing, what is the alignment geometry method used with MintLP: ie: Baerwald/Lofgren A, Lofgren B, Stevenson or none of the above ?

i know that you can request either method; when i get home tonight i'll look at mine and tell you what it says.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

jazdoc said:
(Again), I wholeheartedly agree with Mike...The MintLP is an essential tool for optimizing vinyl playback. The 'bang for the buck' in terms of more precise, repeatable set up is huge.

This is a real world example where utilizing better measurements correlates well with subjective improvement in sound quality.

you oughta add this post to any thread about measurements and audiophiles. great point!

MylesBAstor · Sep 30, 2011

If I read this correct, you're saying the Graham method suffers from the possibility of being slightly off because of VTF? But OTOH, what about the error of getting the correct zenith? That's a lot harder with the MINTLP protractor than the Graham however.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
If I read this correct, you're saying the Graham method suffers from the possibility of being slightly off because of VTF? But OTOH, what about the error of getting the correct zenith? That's a lot harder with the MINTLP protractor than the Graham however.

it's not that the VTF would be off; only that since the jig presumes a mean value for VTF, which effects overhang due to suspension compression, the overhang is not precise for every VTF. whereas a conventional protractor does not have this limitation.

like anything; nailing cartridge setup is a combination of having the best tools, best method, experience, and a bit of art. zenith falls into the experience and art part. you can see when zenith is off with the look of the cantiliver relative to the body and adjust for it. the Mint Lp will show you zenith related issues; the precision of the lines and the parallelogram mirror do deal with that issue. you get three dimentional information.

have you ever used a Mint Lp?

i would expect that an optimized setup with a Graham done with the jig, could be likely improved with a Mint Lp. OTOH the Graham jig method would be quicker, easier, and done by a newbie easier. the Mint Lp is simply more precise.

MylesBAstor · Sep 30, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
like anything; nailing cartridge setup is a combination of having the best tools, best method, experience, and a bit of art. zenith falls into the experience and art part. you can see when zenith is off with the look of the cantiliver relative to the body and adjust for it. the Mint Lp will show you zenith related issues; the precision of the lines and the parallelogram mirror do deal with that issue. you get three dimentional information.

have you ever used a Mint Lp?

i would expect that if an optimized setup with a Graham could be likely improved with a Mint Lp. OTOH the Graham would be quicker, easier, and done by a newbie easier. the Mint Lp is simply more precise.

It just seems that these protractors are much harder to use with cartridges outfitted with short cantilevers and non-rectangular bodies

Then again, this might be a job helped by a digital scope. Or maybe it's just me showing my age and eyesight

And no, haven't used the Mint LP though if the pics are accurate, sort of reminds me of an improved dB alignment gauge. I've utilized the VPI jig whose geometry was "optimized" by Harry and Mitch Cotter.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 30, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
It just seems that these protractors are much harder to use with cartridges outfitted with short cantilevers and non-rectangular bodies Then again, this might be a job helped by a digital scope. Or maybe it's just me showing my age and eyesight

i'm sure i've got 5 years of age on ya at least.

the Mint Lp does not use the cartridge body for any reference. it uses the cantiliver and stylus tip only. to me the hard ones are where the cartridge body is so big you can't see underneath it. then the Graham Jig would be the way to go.

And no, haven't used the Mint LP though if the pics are accurate, sort of reminds me of an improved dB alignment gauge. I've utilized the VPI jig whose geometry was "optimized" by Harry and Mitch Cotter.

jazdoc · Sep 30, 2011

Well I may not be as 'mature' as Mike or Myles, but I've been wearing glasses since the 2nd grade. Additionally, I've inherited an unfortunate genetic predisposition to incredibly bad hand-eye coordination.

Now if I can get great results with the MintLP, anybody can.

MylesBAstor · Sep 30, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
i'm sure i've got 5 years of age on ya at least.

the Mint Lp does not use the cartridge body for any reference. it uses the cantiliver and stylus tip only. to me the hard ones are where the cartridge body is so big you can't see underneath it. then the Graham Jig would be the way to go.

Oh I understand about the cantilever being used - as in the Graham too

It's just the body is the easiest to start with. But with the Graham can easily sight down the cantilever too and align it.

OTOH, I was thinking about the beasts to set up such as the 47 Labs Miyabi or Red Rose Petal. The Titan i is a walk in the park with its nude design.

pejosefgartner · Oct 20, 2011

Dear Sir, I have bought a second hand Phantom II 10" arm. But can't find the spec for this arm for mounting distance, effective length...on internet. Would you please advise them? Furthermore, there is one small L-shape blue color tool, seems for align adjustment use. Do you have any formation about how to use it? Thanks for your kindly help in advance.
Tommy

JackD201 · Oct 21, 2011

Hi Tommy,

You can see the simplified answers to your questions on Page 1, Post #6 of this thread. Hope that helps.

Jack

rockitman · Oct 21, 2011

pejosefgartner said:
Dear Sir, I have bought a second hand Phantom II 10" arm. But can't find the spec for this arm for mounting distance, effective length...on internet. Would you please advise them? Furthermore, there is one small L-shape blue color tool, seems for align adjustment use. Do you have any formation about how to use it? Thanks for your kindly help in advance.
Tommy

I would contact Bob Graham for that specific information, especially if you are mounting the arm in the plinth for the first time (needing to cut a hole at the correct distance)....you need those specs. Did your arm come with the little white spingle cup for setting pivot to spindle distance ?

repair/technical :
Graham Engineering, Inc.
25M Olympia Avenue
Woburn, MA 01801 U.S.A.

tel: (781) 932-8777
e-mail: info@graham-engineering.com

pejosefgartner · Oct 22, 2011

Indeed, I am the first time to install Graham arm.
Dear Christian

Normally I used Walter E. Schoen alignment template for cartridge & arm installation for my previous arms; Roksan & Nottingham's arm.
That's why I am looking for the spec of Graham.
It seems there is some kind of white plastic cap for spindle for installation. Unfortunately my purchased one without this tool.
I will be sincerely appreciate if can provide me the easier solution or spec for my arm.
By the way, my turntable is Nottingham Interpsace HD (surely I am also looking for suitable table for upgrade), Phantom II (SME mounting bottom)

Tommy

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