the Durand 'Telos' 12" tonearm

Mike Lavigne · Sep 9, 2011

the 'news' is that Joel Durand has a new tonearm, the 12" Telos, which i'll have (hopefully) within a month. for the last 6-9 months Joel has brought over various versions of this amazing creation, each one more outragously amazing sounding than the previous, and tested it in my room. initially on the Beat, and for the last few months on the NVS. up till now i've not been able to post about it.

this tonearm has changed how i view the heirarchy of things audio. i've made claims about how unipivots are better than other arms, how arms in general are the most important component by far of the vinyl playback system, and even how vinyl can sound better than the best tapes. i've written about how distortion is prevalent in an audio system, and until you hear it's absense, you really are clueless to reality.

all those 'opinions' are based on my exposure to this game destroying tonearm, the Telos. every session with this arm causes those who have been lucky enough to be witness to babble on about the implications of what we were hearing. you want to pinch yourself to make sure it's real.

and it is real. imagine the concept of a Formula 1 car applied to a tonearm. and this Formula 1 car is not subject to any restrictions. every varaible of tonearm design and execution has been challenged and proven or thrown out, and then every piece has been optimized to the max.

anyway; those are just words on a page. my understanding is that the Telos will be at RMAF to be listened to. i cannot wait for more ears to be exposed to this phenominal product.

es347 · Sep 9, 2011

Does it cost about the same as an F1 car?

Steve Williams · Sep 9, 2011

Mike

will you sell one of your other arms to make room for this or can the NVS use 3 arms

Mike Lavigne · Sep 9, 2011

es347 said:
Does it cost about the same as an F1 car?

it will cost 'alot more' than my other 2 arms; the $7995 Talea 2 tonearm and the $6500 Talea 1 tonearm. you'd need to contact Joel Durand about that for a better answer.

http://www.durand-tonearms.com/

i suspect that those that hear it and realize what they are hearing will have to have it.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 9, 2011

Steve Williams said:
Mike

will you sell one of your other arms to make room for this or can the NVS use 3 arms

yes; i'll be selling my Talea 1 when i get the Telos. i only need 2 arms. in fact; when i get the Telos i'll compare my Mono's on the Talea 2 with the mono cartridge mounted to Mono's on the Telos with my stereo cartridge. if there is not much difference then i'll end up selling the Talea 2 also. i'll only have 2 arms if Mono's are better on the Talea 2 arm with a Mono cartridge. it's a question. i'm not going to own 2 Telos's.

sorry; i did not answer your last question. no; the NVS cannot support 3 arms.

jazdoc · Sep 9, 2011

I'm in the queue behind Mike...as always

mep · Sep 9, 2011

The only unipivot arms I have owned has been the JMW-9 and JMW-10 and I didn't care for either of them. I know neither of these arms are anywhere near being in the same league as the Durand arms. The JMW arms just reminded me of teeter-totters and I didn't care for the lack of perceived stability. For the here and now, I'm very happy with the SME 312S arm that came highly recommended to me by Albert Porter.

MylesBAstor · Sep 9, 2011

mep said:
The only unipivot arms I have owned has been the JMW-9 and JMW-10 and I didn't care for either of them. I know neither of these arms are anywhere near being in the same league as the Durand arms. The JMW arms just reminded me of teeter-totters and I didn't care for the lack of perceived stability. For the here and now, I'm very happy with the SME 312S arm that came highly recommended to me by Albert Porter.

Hmmmm....I don't have any stability issues with my VPI JMW10.5i arm and the new SS Counter-Intuitive makes setting VTF and azimuth a snap. In fact, the adjustments are so tiny that can really dial in the cartridge's sound. I can adjust the tracking force in increments of 0.01 gms practically blindfolded; as far as azimuth, I've never been able to dial it in so fine and then adjust for optimat sound.

I've also compared the 12 inch VPI arm to arms such as the Air Tangent and overall preferred the VPI.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 9, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
Hmmmm....I don't have any stability issues with my VPI JMW10.5i arm and the new SS Counter-Intuitive makes setting VTF and azimuth a snap. In fact, the adjustments are so tiny that can really dial in the cartridge's sound. I can adjust the tracking force in increments of 0.01 gms practically blindfolded; as far as azimuth, I've never been able to dial it in so fine and then adjust for optimat sound.

I've also compared the 12 inch VPI arm to arms such as the Air Tangent and overall preferred the VPI.

Myles and Mark,

i've not owned a VPI arm, but i have listened to plenty of them, and have owned a few Graham unipivots....which are pretty good and that i prefer to VPI's i have heard. both the Talea 1 and Talea 2 arms are unipivots that humble the Grahams. and the Telos is on another level or three beyond those two arms.

as far as my comments on Unipivots; what i've said is that up to a point the design approach of an arm is less the issue than the execution. but beyond that point, unipivots have the most potential as they are the most 'free' to follow the groove. i see that point as below the Talea 1. the Reed arms and the Rockport linear tracker are both great arms....among the very best of their designs. but the Talea 1 steps beyond those arms clearly. it's simply less distorted, and more close to the music.

then the Talea 2 takes a leap beyond. then the Telos rips up the whole paradigm and establishes a new territory of performance. no linear tracker or gimballed arm will likely approach it.

that is just how things look to me. i could be wrong.

MylesBAstor · Sep 9, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
Myles and Mark,

i've not owned a VPI arm, but i have listened to plenty of them, and have owned a few Graham unipivots....which are pretty good and that i prefer to VPI's i have heard. both the Talea 1 and Talea 2 arms are unipivots that humble the Grahams. and the Telos is on another level or three beyond those two arms.

as far as my comments on Unipivots; what i've said is that up to a point the design approach of an arm is less the issue than the execution. but beyond that point, unipivots have the most potential as they are the most 'free' to follow the groove. i see that point as below the Talea 1. the Reed arms and the Rockport linear tracker are both great arms....among the very best of their designs. but the Talea 1 steps beyond those arms clearly. it's simply less distorted, and more close to the music.

then the Talea 2 takes a leap beyond. the the Telos rips up the whole paradigm and establishes a new territory of performance. no linear tracker or gimballed arm will likely approach it.

that is just how things look to me. i could be wrong.

Thanks for your insight Mike

The Durand arm sure sounds tempting but unfortunately can't put a 12 incher arm on my table

Years ago had the chance to compare the Graham 1.5/2.0 vs early 12 inch VPI arm in my system on the TNT table (one also wonders if there's not a synergy using the VPI arm with the VPI table?). I clearly preferred the VPI; I do wonder what the Graham might sound like with different internal wiring and would love to hear Bob's latest creation.

Also had compared the Graham 1.5 to my totally tricked out ET and there was no contest; the Graham won hands down. In particular, the Graham was far more dynamic.

mep · Sep 9, 2011

Mike-When you say that unipivots are more free to follow the groove, what do you mean by that? With regards to the VPI arms, the idea of a needle point sitting in a cup just didn't seem that stable to me and thus my teeter-totter comment. When I grab on to a tonearm, I like to have a feeling of stability in my hand. I don't know if there is another tonearm company in the world that has the mechanical engineering experience and machine shop capabilities that SME does. Also, are there any other tonearm manufacturers that have been building tonearms as long as SME has? I can't think of any that have been in continious production of high-quality tonearms as long as SME has been.

Mark

jazdoc · Sep 9, 2011

The unipivots definitely have a different feel and I can understand how it could be disconcerting. That said, the proof is in the sound pudding and Durand arms, especially the Telos have set the bar pretty high as far as sonic performance. Not only that, the fit, finish and packing are exemplary.

mep · Sep 9, 2011

Any concerns with a wooden tonearm swelling and shrinking with changes in humidity?

jazdoc · Sep 9, 2011

Well I live in a Seattle suburb and there has been no issues that I'm aware of...

naturephoto1 · Sep 9, 2011

mep said:
Any concerns with a wooden tonearm swelling and shrinking with changes in humidity?

Mark,

I have yet to notice any problems of swelling and shrinkage with changes in humidity of either my wooden Teres Illius tonearm or my Teres Certus 450 turntable (has a wooden platter) and I live in eastern PA. I do have AC in the summer months though as do most of us in much of the US.

Rich

MylesBAstor · Sep 9, 2011

mep said:
Mike-When you say that unipivots are more free to follow the groove, what do you mean by that? With regards to the VPI arms, the idea of a needle point sitting in a cup just didn't seem that stable to me and thus my teeter-totter comment. When I grab on to a tonearm, I like to have a feeling of stability in my hand. I don't know if there is another tonearm company in the world that has the mechanical engineering experience and machine shop capabilities that SME does. Also, are there any other tonearm manufacturers that have been building tonearms as long as SME has? I can't think of any that have been in continious production of high-quality tonearms as long as SME has been.

Mark

Bear in mind that HW works with some noted, all time designers with his products. Don't discount the input of Joe Grado and Mitch Cotter in Harry's designs and even the design/geometry of his arm alignment jig

There's a lot of years of experience there

Mike Lavigne · Sep 9, 2011

mep said:
Mike-When you say that unipivots are more free to follow the groove, what do you mean by that? With regards to the VPI arms, the idea of a needle point sitting in a cup just didn't seem that stable to me and thus my teeter-totter comment. When I grab on to a tonearm, I like to have a feeling of stability in my hand. I don't know if there is another tonearm company in the world that has the mechanical engineering experience and machine shop capabilities that SME does. Also, are there any other tonearm manufacturers that have been building tonearms as long as SME has? I can't think of any that have been in continious production of high-quality tonearms as long as SME has been.

Mark

with a unipivot the arm has only one pivot point, so the arm is free to twist and pivot without restriction. a gimballed arm has some degree of resistance from having more than one point of control. it's just geometry and physics. the advantage of multiple points of control is just that; more control. but at a certain point in development, multiple points of control start to restrict the ability of the arm to react perfectly. the advantage of control becomes a limitation to resolution. if a unipivot is fully optimized, the limitation of the freedom becomes it's major advantage.

i've had two Reed gimballed arms and the Rockport linear tracker here in my room for the last few years while i've also had the Durand Talea arms and now the Telos. trust me; the Reed gimballed arms are wonderful. really; the best pivoted arms i've ever heard (that includes the Graham, the Triplaner, the SME 312s, and many others) until i heard the Durand arms.

a year ago i did not have this opinion about unipivots.

and as i heard these unipivots better by some, then better some more, then stomp all over the Reed and Rockport arms, i formed my opinions. you can hear what it's doing and how free of distortion it is.

i'm very much looking forward to RMAF where more people can be exposed to the Telos.

as far as engineering; i know SME is a formidable company and has earned it's engineering chops.

however; Joel Durand has the University of Washington (one of the 2 or 3 largest defense grant Universities in the country) engineering department and machine shop, as well as a multitude of vendors that service the aircraft industry here in the Northwest (Boeing) to support his project. having engineering chops is one thing; applying cutting edge thinking to a tonearm is another. Joel is also Professor of Music Composition (and composer) as well as a mathmetician. he has the musical reference as well as the science.

i'd invite you to listen to a Durand tonearm on familiar music and decide for yourself.

i have invested lots of time and money into investigating the best possible vinyl playback. the answer is much different than what i thought it would be.

mep · Sep 9, 2011

Mike-I'm certainly looking foward to hearing the Durand arm. I know that you have heard everything under the sun and if you are this excited about it, it must be special. I was a little surprised when I went to the link that you posted above and he said that due to customer demand, he has provided a tonearm rest. What happened to the tonearm before he had the rest?

Mark

Mike Lavigne · Sep 9, 2011

mep said:
Mike-I'm certainly looking foward to hearing the Durand arm. I know that you have heard everything under the sun and if you are this excited about it, it must be special. I was a little surprised when I went to the link that you posted above and he said that due to customer demand, he has provided a tonearm rest. What happened to the tonearm before he had the rest?

Mark

the tonearm rest issue was from the original Talea. it has a cueing bar the armwand sits on, but not an actual rest that holds the armwand. the Talea 2 has a rest incorporated into the tower housing.

understand that 18 months prior to the introduction of the Talea 1 Joel had never even considered building a tonearm; yet his first tonearm went to market 18 months later as likely the best tonearm yet built. look at the build quality and precision of it; it had dynamic azimuth adjustment. so he had a learning curve but clearly he did learn.

jtinn · Sep 10, 2011

The Telos

I want to first say congratulations to Joel Durand for his newest success, the Telos!

My experience with the Telos echoes Mike's and Jazzdoc's. It is more than wonderful and just like the Talea, it is impressive, incredibly musical and raises the bar even higher in the world of tonearms.

I just want to clarify that this arm will not replace the Talea and will be substantially more expensive. It uses extremely exotic and obscenely expensive materials. It is a limited production arm that I am sure only a lucky few will be able to afford (not that the Talea is cheap). Both arms, even at their respective prices represent a great value given my knowledge of what goes into both of these marvelous products.

I manufacture what I feel is the best turntable in the world and I know some of you might find it hard to believe that I would say this, but... I would rather listen to a mediocre turntable with the Talea or Telos than I would a great turntable with a mediocre arm.

the Durand 'Telos' 12" tonearm

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