Telefunken M15A what a beautiful mechanism but disappointed stock sound

tony ky ma · Aug 16, 2011

The design and construction of M15A's mechanism is the most beautiful thing in the R2R's world. solid as a piece iron and it's smooth operation no other makes can compare, every friend of mine must say wow in the first sight when it run but we didn't say wow when it sang maybe impressed by the mechanism too much.
machine can't sang right a way by the time it arrived tips from Ki ( change tape to face out, replace in out put sockets etc,) but still one thing can't be done is CCIR/NAB switching and tune, I don't understand the Germany handbook and those marks on the amp broad, even the circuit drawing is not detail as the Studer's manual, so what I can do to listen it's sound is to play the Tape Project's tape without tune up. sound quality is so so to me no wow, edge of the image's body not sharp enough, not too clear with mud, less live emotion. I guess it is better to forget it's stock playback ( need to find out CCIR/NAB switching and tuning), it is very easy connect directly to the repro head to use a external playback pre amp should be better in result, Sorry to Telefunken's fans, it is my personal opinion
tony ma

fas42 · Aug 16, 2011

My immediate thought would to go through the machine and clean up and make more robust every non-soldered connection you can find: fuses, switches, cards, the works. That's what the symptoms are saying to me ...

Frank

tony ky ma · Aug 16, 2011

fas42 said:
My immediate thought would to go through the machine and clean up and make more robust every non-soldered connection you can find: fuses, switches, cards, the works. That's what the symptoms are saying to me ...

Frank

Frank
I agree that will change a little bit, but the basic character of sound is not my favor and need to find out how to switch CCIR to NAB
tony ma

RogerD · Aug 17, 2011

tony ky ma said:
The design and construction of M15A's mechanism is the most beautiful thing in the R2R's world. solid as a piece iron and it's smooth operation no other makes can compare, every friend of mine must say wow in the first sight when it run but we didn't say wow when it sang maybe impressed by the mechanism too much.
machine can't sang right a way by the time it arrived tips from Ki ( change tape to face out, replace in out put sockets etc,) but still one thing can't be done is CCIR/NAB switching and tune, I don't understand the Germany handbook and those marks on the amp broad, even the circuit drawing is not detail as the Studer's manual, so what I can do to listen it's sound is to play the Tape Project's tape without tune up. sound quality is so so to me no wow, edge of the image's body not sharp enough, not too clear with mud, less live emotion. I guess it is better to forget it's stock playback ( need to find out CCIR/NAB switching and tuning), it is very easy connect directly to the repro head to use a external playback pre amp should be better in result, Sorry to Telefunken's fans, it is my personal opinion
tony ma

Hi Tony,

Maybe one should ask is there any stock tape electronics that is high end quality?

microstrip · Aug 17, 2011

I (and surely several other people) would be very interested in learning about your opinion about the sound of the M15A with external reproduction electronics. The mechanics of the M15A is very considered in Europe but sometimes they show at very low prices in Germany. I think they are not very popular elsewhere because, as you say, the little available service information only exists in German.

tony ky ma · Aug 17, 2011

microstrip said:
I (and surely several other people) would be very interested in learning about your opinion about the sound of the M15A with external reproduction electronics. The mechanics of the M15A is very considered in Europe but sometimes they show at very low prices in Germany. I think they are not very popular elsewhere because, as you say, the little available service information only exists in German.

Hi Roger and Microstrip
I am not a real pro machine expert like Ki although I started play with recorder in the age of 12, dubbed tape to tape or LP to tape, 3 years ago, my partner who usually to have live mini concert in his house some times and in the same time I don't have anymore new ideas to improve our exist system, so we decided to go from the source, we started with a Audio Technica condenser mic and a SS mic pre-amp to a Revox A77 4 track 7.5, since then changed to tube mic tube pre amp, machine from 4 track to 2 track 15, till now finally modified tape electronics to tube and transformer, so my experience of tape machine's stock sound,mainly on Revox and Studer PR99, B62 A810 A80RC A80VR pluse Telefunken M36 and 15A only, in mechanism of Studer from B62 to A80 or A810, the improvement was really great but not the sound, even worst. maybe they put too much on convenience for studio use made too many switches and a lot of functions for recording and editing, on the stock amount those A80RC is the best of them. ( all transistors no IC) M15A's mechanism and operation is the best compare to Studer but A810 sound similar and little better to M15A they both mix with IC there. A pure tube external pre amp for M15A maybe a good idea of it, give some soft and gentle feeling to a solid hard metal, that will be my next project.
tony ma

Gary D · Aug 17, 2011

tony ky ma said:
Hi Roger and Microstrip
I am not a real pro machine expert like Ki although I started play with recorder in the age of 12, dubbed tape to tape or LP to tape, 3 years ago, my partner who usually to have live mini concert in his house some times and in the same time I don't have anymore new ideas to improve our exist system, so we decided to go from the source, we started with a Audio Technica condenser mic and a SS mic pre-amp to a Revox A77 4 track 7.5, since then changed to tube mic tube pre amp, machine from 4 track to 2 track 15, till now finally modified tape electronics to tube and transformer, so my experience of tape machine's stock sound,mainly on Revox and Studer PR99, B62 A810 A80RC A80VR pluse Telefunken M36 and 15A only, in mechanism of Studer from B62 to A80 or A810, the improvement was really great but not the sound, even worst. maybe they put too much on convenience for studio use made too many switches and a lot of functions for recording and editing, on the stock amount those A80RC is the best of them. ( all transistors no IC) M15A's mechanism and operation is the best compare to Studer but A810 sound similar and little better to M15A they both mix with IC there. A pure tube external pre amp for M15A maybe a good idea of it, give some soft and gentle feeling to a solid hard metal, that will be my next project.
tony ma

Hello Tony,
It has been my experience that the circuit is the most important and a focal point .If you listen to most different studio recorders and there manufacturer they all have a sound signature all there own.A Studer is much different than Ampex , a Crown much different from both it has to be in the design.You can read on Gearslutz for example many recording engineers that prefer Studer or Ampex or MCI. The reason is there sound and what color they impart to the final product.The Ampex studio decks are known for there warmth and rich tone this extends from the early decks all the way to there ATR series.There has to be a defining reason behind this and I think it's the circuit design.
These professional decks all have very good specifications the top line Studer have excellent S/N , Distortion figures but the sound is still diffrent from other Mfg decks. As you point out in the Telefunken M15 very good transport and build quality just not your cup of tea.

Cheers,
Gary

RogerD · Aug 17, 2011

Let's not forget the heads. All these machines use different head manufacturers. Although Ampex and Studer made their own heads,not sure about the others.

gamve · Mar 2, 2013

tony ky ma said:
The design and construction of M15A's mechanism is the most beautiful thing in the R2R's world. solid as a piece iron and it's smooth operation no other makes can compare, every friend of mine must say wow in the first sight when it run but we didn't say wow when it sang maybe impressed by the mechanism too much.
machine can't sang right a way by the time it arrived tips from Ki ( change tape to face out, replace in out put sockets etc,) but still one thing can't be done is CCIR/NAB switching and tune, I don't understand the Germany handbook and those marks on the amp broad, even the circuit drawing is not detail as the Studer's manual, so what I can do to listen it's sound is to play the Tape Project's tape without tune up. sound quality is so so to me no wow, edge of the image's body not sharp enough, not too clear with mud, less live emotion. I guess it is better to forget it's stock playback ( need to find out CCIR/NAB switching and tuning), it is very easy connect directly to the repro head to use a external playback pre amp should be better in result, Sorry to Telefunken's fans, it is my personal opinion
tony ma

Hi Tony,
How much trouble is it to change the duetch spec machine from tape face in to tape face out. I have been watching a few machines and the inside out one go very reasonably. I have a spare set of Studer A80RC repo cards and I spied your head amp here in another thread. In you opinion is it worth getting a M15A and running outboard electronics
Cheers
Graham

tony ky ma · Mar 2, 2013

Hi Granham
Welcome to join R2R Diy family , It is lucky M15A's head can be matched with A80RC's repro card, no need input transformer in between, as I mentioned in other thread that you can switch to outboard or back to stock for compare very easy. I have not compare the stock sound between M15A and A80RC directly but with same modified A80RC's repro card, they are quite similar the same which means mechanism and head's quality are in the same level quality, main thing is change the output stage of A80RC repro card into tube and transformer will give the sound a big change in transparency and emotion, never fail
Cheers
tony ma

NorthStar · Mar 2, 2013

-- Hi Graham, and welcome! :b

Cheers,
Bob

gamve · Mar 2, 2013

tony ky ma said:
Hi Granham
Welcome to join R2R Diy family , It is lucky M15A's head can be matched with A80RC's repro card, no need input transformer in between, as I mentioned in other thread that you can switch to outboard or back to stock for compare very easy. I have not compare the stock sound between M15A and A80RC directly but with same modified A80RC's repro card, they are quite similar the same which means mechanism and head's quality are in the same level quality, main thing is change the output stage of A80RC repro card into tube and transformer will give the sound a big change in transparency and emotion, never fail
Cheers
tony ma

Thanks Tony,
Looks like it is worth pursuing. Will try and find the other thread regarding tape orientation.
OK found it. Is there any issue doing a fast rewind of a tails out tape with a 180 degree twist in the tape between the take up reel and the tension sensor post and the same twist on the the supply reel side like suggested? I can see this is probably not a problem at 15 ips playback speed but at tape high speed this would make me very nervous. Your other method also sounds OK but the lack of breaking when rewinding would also frighten me. I guess best solution is make tapes just to run on the M15A with the oxide out type orientation. Setting them up for the first run oxide side out using the twist method could be initially done on the A80RC using a slow edit speed rewind as there seems to be more space between the last tension roller and the supply reel which would keep the twist longer and not stress the tape quite as much.
What do you think?
Cheers
Graham

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