Six Shooter + Marantz ud9004 / who needs HDMI anyway?

edorr

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Listening to a demo of swtiching a Marantz BR player hooked up to Anthem D2 between HDMI and multi channel analog inputs convinced me analog beats HDMI on High Rez audio any time (may be unless you venture into 20K+ Meridian territory). This induced me to first upgrade my Denon HDMI transport to a Pioneer BPD-09 (wich has stellar analog outs), using the analog MC bypass in my Onkyo 885. The differene was night and day.

Now the weakest link was my Onkyo 885 analog preamp section, so out went Onkyo and in came the Theta six shooter. Another dramatic improvement. The need for a single box BR / SACD player forced me to replace my Pioneer BDP-09 and Theta Compli SACD player with the Marantz ud9004. The Pioneer + Compli to Marantz improvement is quite as dramatic as was getting Pioneer or the six shooter, but it is definitely another step up.

While admittely the CBIII doing duties as Six Shooter controller and SSP for my satellite receiver is not efficient use of rackspace, the results are stellar. I am seriously wondering how much of an improvement CBIII + HDMI can deliver over SS + ud9004. On SACD the analog route will definitely rule. Playing regular DTS 5.1 sounds better through the SS than over S/PDIF into the CBIII Xtreme cards, so one has to wonder what HDMI magic can Theta possible deliver to outperform the the Marantz SS combo in the absence of Room EQ.

Let's hope Theta delivers so we can find out...
 

Kal Rubinson

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Strange. First, imho, the analog inputs on the 885 (like my Integra 9.8) are the weakest feature of the unit, regardless of the source component. Second, the Marantz UD 9004 does not output high resolution signals from SACD over HDMI. Note on page 16 of the user manual that the output is downsampled to CD resolution, 16/44.1. That alone makes your comparison biased in favor of the analog outputs from this player.

Compare a player with full-bandwidth DSD/HDMI signal output into a DSD/HDMI-capable processor against the analog path for a less biased comparison of the two.
 

edorr

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Strange. First, imho, the analog inputs on the 885 (like my Integra 9.8) are the weakest feature of the unit, regardless of the source component. Second, the Marantz UD 9004 does not output high resolution signals from SACD over HDMI. Note on page 16 of the user manual that the output is downsampled to CD resolution, 16/44.1. That alone makes your comparison biased in favor of the analog outputs from this player.

Compare a player with full-bandwidth DSD/HDMI signal output into a DSD/HDMI-capable processor against the analog path for a less biased comparison of the two.

I did in fact compary my Sony XA5400 with Onkyo 855 (DSD direct) with the Marantz + SS. As you would expect at a multiple of the $$$ the analog path won. With the CBIII, SACD over HDMI at any bandwidth comparisons are moot points because the CBIII has no HDMI.

I am just provisionally assuming that because the Marantz DACs over a SS sound better than the CBIII Xtreme DACs in both Redbook and and DTS 5.1, I don't see how any full-bandwidth SACD source (Oppo) can sound better after conversion to PCM into those same Xtreme Cards. May be Theta pulls off some HDMI magic in which case I will gladly eat my words. I am even hedging my bets and hold on to my HDMI compliant cards (for now).

My conclusion that once you own a six shooter + Marantz, Theta's HDMI upgrade most likely will not buy you anything. This does not even imply I think most Theta owners are ill advised to do the upgrade. If the upgrade + one Oppo will cost the same as a Marantz, and it gives you 90% of SACD performance and possibly equal or better Blu Ray and more flexibility and more future upgrade paths (better DACs in the CBIII at some point), it may make perfects sense to upgrade.

The point I was making is that IF you sunk the a lot of money into a SOTA universal player AND you are using a very good analog preamp AND you don't need roomEQ (wich the CBIII won't give you anyway), you don't need HDMI. Very few people will meet all three conditions so good HDMI capable SSPs will probably outsell tru SOTA multi channel universals for the foreseeable future.
 

Bulldogger

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The point I was making is that IF you sunk the a lot of money into a SOTA universal player AND you are using a very good analog preamp AND you don't need roomEQ (wich the CBIII won't give you anyway), you don't need HDMI. Very few people will meet all three conditions so good HDMI capable SSPs will probably outsell tru SOTA multi channel universals for the foreseeable future.

Even if you need room EQ,IMO the Six Shooter and separate transport handily wins. In 2006, I believe, I shot out the Six Shooter and a Marantz SACD player playing CD against a Meridian 861 feed digitally from the Marantz and using room correction. The SS/Marantz combo sounded considerably better than the surround processor. NO CONTEST. Your evaluations match my experience. This was in a large room with wooden floors. The 861 was owned by a fraternity brother. He insisted I was wasting my time comparing a surround processor against analog pre-amp and separate high end player. He was absolutely right IMO.
 

Bulldogger

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the Marantz DACs over a SS sound better than the CBIII Xtreme DACs in both Redbook and and DTS 5.1, .
I believe this is going to hold true for all surround processors on the market vs the Six Shooter with a high end enough player. If only I could get mine back from Theta!
 

Bulldogger

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edorr, I am still "stuck" in that I do 7.1. Is there any way to expand a 5.1 track to 7.1 with the Marantz? It it turns out I will need DD Prologic IIx to to that, I would still need the HDMI upgrade. That's the one thing that I can not seem to get around, post-processing provided by a pre-pro.
 

edorr

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edorr, I am still "stuck" in that I do 7.1. Is there any way to expand a 5.1 track to 7.1 with the Marantz? It it turns out I will need DD Prologic IIx to to that, I would still need the HDMI upgrade. That's the one thing that I can not seem to get around, post-processing provided by a pre-pro.

Someone on the avsforum assured me the Marantz will process 5.1 into 7.1. I checked the manual online and it says the ud9004 has a Dolby Digital PL IIx processing mode, which should do the trick. I can try later at home if this mode gets me signal on the Side Surround channels with 5.1 sources. Easiest thing to do is however give DM holdings a call and ask for a product manager for the UD9004. I chatted with D&M prior to buying (basically to let myself be convinced the Marantz is worth the extra cash over the Denon). By the way, with just over 300 hours on it the Marantz is now really beginning to open up. On Blu Ray against the Pioneer BDP-09 the difference is not dramatic but still very material. However, against the Compli on MC SACD there is no comparison. Balanced 2 channel is also very good and beats the Xtreme card hands down. I am on the verge of listing my 2nd Xtreme card on A'gon and stick with analog into SS indefinitely except for satellite TV.
 
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Bulldogger

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I called Marantz. It only out puts what is on the disk. Not the least bit surprised that the Marantz out performs the Xtreme dacs. It will likely out perform the dacs of any surround processor. The Xtremes are the best of any surrond proccessor I have heard.
 

edorr

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Just for kicks I will try the Dolby Digital PL IIx mode with a 5.1 disc anyway and see if any sound comes out of my side surround channels. The manual clearly suggests you should be able to get 7.1 this way. I'll let you know.
 

edorr

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I called Marantz. It only out puts what is on the disk. Not the least bit surprised that the Marantz out performs the Xtreme dacs. It will likely out perform the dacs of any surround processor. The Xtremes are the best of any surrond proccessor I have heard.

I was very impressed with the Xtreme cards and this is one reason I thought the HDMI upgrade might still be a winner in the end. However, since the Marantz handily beats the Xtreme cards on two channel, I don't see how the outcome will be any different using 6 channels. Also, a have a Perfect Wave DAC that was part of the 3 way 2 channel shootout and the PWD bested the Marantz (by a small margin) but trounced the Xtreme cards. Only advantage of going through the CBIII + Xtreme is bass management. For some recordings crossing LF over to the subwoofer is beneficial - The CBIII does this better than the Marantz, and obviously using the PWD I cannot use my subwoofer. Still for 90% of recordings the PWD rules on 2 channel and the Marantz is a close second. The margin is small enough that if I did not need the PWD to convert computer audio files with the upcoming bridge, I would have happily just used the Marantz for all my sources and not use any outboard DAC.
 

Bulldogger

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I was very impressed with the Xtreme cards and this is one reason I thought the HDMI upgrade might still be a winner in the end. However, since the Marantz handily beats the Xtreme cards on two channel, I don't see how the outcome will be any different using 6 channels. Also, a have a Perfect Wave DAC that was part of the 3 way 2 channel shootout and the PWD bested the Marantz (by a small margin) but trounced the Xtreme cards. Only advantage of going through the CBIII + Xtreme is bass management. For some recordings crossing LF over to the subwoofer is beneficial - The CBIII does this better than the Marantz, and obviously using the PWD I cannot use my subwoofer. Still for 90% of recordings the PWD rules on 2 channel and the Marantz is a close second. The margin is small enough that if I did not need the PWD to convert computer audio files with the upcoming bridge, I would have happily just used the Marantz for all my sources and not use any outboard DAC.
What we are really discussing is NOT using a surround processor but rather a high-end blu-ray player and a multi-channel analog pre-amp. I have been making the points you make for years. However, in the end, most still seem to want a surround processor:confused:. If you want a surround processor, I believe the CBIII upgrade will be one of the best. If you want the best sound, a stand alone player and multi-channel analog pre-amp will win, be that the Audio Research MAP, EMM Labs Switchman or Theta Six Shooter. I certainly plan to try the new digital out card even if it is limited to 44/16. This may be a good compromise if you need post-processing and the cross-over options. Granted it may not sound as good as your approach but even at the lower resolution it may still sound better than any surround processor.

Are you using a sub in your set-up?
 

edorr

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What we are really discussing is NOT using a surround processor but rather a high-end blu-ray player and a multi-channel analog pre-amp. I have been making the points you make for years. However, in the end, most still seem to want a surround processor:confused:. If you want a surround processor, I believe the CBIII upgrade will be one of the best. If you want the best sound, a stand alone player and multi-channel analog pre-amp will win, be that the Audio Research MAP, EMM Labs Switchman or Theta Six Shooter. I certainly plan to try the new digital out card even if it is limited to 44/16. This may be a good compromise if you need post-processing and the cross-over options. Granted it may not sound as good as your approach but even at the lower resolution it may still sound better than any surround processor.

Are you using a sub in your set-up?

I am using a Revel B15 SW which has a build in equilizer and very accurate setup disk and calibrations software. This may be one reason I don't miss RoomEQ very much, since most EQ issues arise at low frequencies. Not sure why you would using the new digi out card - I presume you would want to use a 2 channel external DAC and run your other 6 channels (if you do 7.1) through the Xtreme cards. This would be beneficial if the outboard DAC in 44/16 bests the Xtremes in 96/24 which seems unlikely. Also, to get this to work you need a 2 channel volume control box which will set you back $700. In my view the new digi out card would only make sense if you use a CBIII + Gen Viii which will support 96/24 over the digi out card using proprietary protocol. May be I misunderstand what configuration you have in mind. All academic at this point anyway because the alledged card will come after HDMI so don't hold your breath.
 

edorr

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Tried the Dolby Digital PL IIx mode on the UD9004 but had no luck. This mode only works if you set HDMI audio mode to multi channel, in which case the 7.1 analog outputs don't work (you need to set HDMI to 2 channel or mute in order to get 7.1 analog out). So I guess the DDD PL IIx mode works only on the HDMI outputs, giving you 7.1 LPCM output channels digitally from a 5.1 source. Strange design choice from Marantz if you ask me, but this is what they did.
 

Bulldogger

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Not sure why you would using the new digi out card - I presume you would want to use a 2 channel external DAC and run your other 6 channels (if you do 7.1) through the Xtreme cards. This would be beneficial if the outboard DAC in 44/16 bests the Xtremes in 96/24 which seems unlikely.

All 7.1 channels out into external dacs into the Six Shooter. Six Shooter would control volume for all channels with no additional volume controls needed. I would only need the two channel volume control if I wanted to still try and use the Xtremes in combination with a single two channel dac. That's not the configuration I would do. DTS-MA and DD True HD movie tracks have few titles @ 96/24. I believe the masters are maybe 48/24 or even 44/16 for all of the blu-ray movies?
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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May 15, 2010
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Guys, with Theta's current repair problems and delay, delay, delay and not even any Compli Blus shipped, I think we should admit that the Theta we knew, luved and hoped for is DEAD beyond repair. Lets not waste time talking about the HDMI upgrade that never happened and isn't goin' to happen. But long live the Six Shooter!
 

Steve Bruzonsky

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Yes, I ordered and got a great deal, thanks to my industry contacts from my days moderating that "other" Special Guest Forum, on the Marantz UD9004. I should have it soon, into my Theta Six Shooter.

I have given up on Theta. There ain't gonna be any HDMI 1.3 upgrade. They've had several years of hype now and nothing to show. And the old Theta facilities are gone. Handwriting is on the wall.
The Bland and Nick were right all along.

But I will still enjoy the Six Shooter with the Marantz!!
 

Bulldogger

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It remains to be seen what will happen at Theta. As long as the two major engineers are still working for the company, and most of the staff, anything remains possible. I will concede when those individuals are not working there. I am sure Kessler is not keeping the Theta staff employed out of the "goodness of his heart". Dave Kerstetter, the digital designer is still working for Theta as far as I know, though his role is listed as consultant. Kersetter is a former Sr. Design engineer from DTS and reworked the Gen VIII.
 

LesAuber

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Jun 21, 2010
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Idle speculation but I have to wonder how the Extremes would have come out against the analog IF Theta had actually got their DSD from the Compli to the CB released. Can't help but wonder if something isn't lost in the translation when DSD from a SACD is downconverted to SPDIF PCM and then sent to the CB. Oh well idle speculation as I say. Another Theta promise that didn't make it. Good thing the SS is so good.
 

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