first 1/2 inch master tape

naturephoto1 · Aug 2, 2011

RogerD said:
Hi Mark,

You are probably right,but I have never heard a 15 ips master, so I have to go with what I have experienced. If I compare this tape to anything I currently have it is the best I have heard. I want to make sure my Studer is biased correctly for this Ampex 406 tape and then I can really get a feel for the sound quality. Right now I think my Ampex 440 electronics are quieter than the Studer but I have no way of testing one against the other.

I can see why master tapes are sought after. I have one master dub 1/4" tape done on a Crown,and while it sounds better than a pre recorded 1/4 inch,as they say don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Once I have my Studer and Ampex setup correctly I'm going to turn the volume up and see how big this Hammond B3 can sound.

Listening to 1/2 inch makes me want to buy a big Ampex like a MM1200....god help me. Only kidding!

Roger,

You can/could turn your Ampex 440C/B hybrid R2R deck into a 1/2" machine.

Not enough recorded material out there for me to do it and my room isn't big enough for more than 1 R2R in all likelihood.

Rich

MylesBAstor · Aug 2, 2011

mep said:
I also thought that faster tape speed = less noise.

All things being equal, which they seldom are

Ki Choi · Aug 2, 2011

RogerD said:
Listening to 1/2 inch makes me want to buy a big Ampex like a MM1200....god help me. Only kidding!

Go for it, Roger! Life is too short.

c1ferrari · Aug 2, 2011

Interesting...

RogerD said:
Hi Sam,

The tape is 7.5 with about 50 minutes of music. Maybe my next one will be 15 or 30 ips, but I would rather have the music.

p.s. I listened to this tape a couple of times last night and what really stands out is the space and ambient detail captured in the recording process. It's not live,but you are in the room and that's really neat stuff.

though it's obviously feasible, I don't think I've heard of a 1/2", 2-track tape recorded at 7.5 ips...I've learned something

tony ky ma · Aug 2, 2011

I don't have a chance to compare 1/4 vs 1/2 in the same kind of machine same kind of tape also same speed. but I am sure 1/2 must better than 1/4 if all conditions are the same, in recording our master or dubbing from master, different made tapes can have big different in result. I wonder in same speed (15/ips) 1/4 with good tape vs 1/2 with tape not as good as the other one, what result will be ? can anyone know the answer ?
tony ma

RogerD · Aug 2, 2011

naturephoto1 said:
Roger,

You can/could turn your Ampex 440C/B hybrid R2R deck into a 1/2" machine. Not enough recorded material out there for me to do it and my room isn't big enough for more than 1 R2R in all likelihood.

Rich

Hi Rich

I can do that if I wanted because the 440 is made to do that conversion easily. The only problem is that Ampex only made 1/2" 4 track and 3 track headstacks. Greg Orton makes a set of 2 track heads though but the price is about 2K. One of these went off on Ebay last week for $630, maybe I should have snagged it. I have a 4 track headstack but I'm going to sell it.
My whole idea about the StuderPex is to have the best of all worlds and if I can get a good match between the Studer playback head (200 ohms?) and the correct Lundahl transformer I can make this work and still have a all Studer capability. I'm determined to do this!

Ki Choi said:
Go for it, Roger! Life is too short.

LMAO, Hi Ki there's a thread on Home recording were a lucky gent picked up a 1 inch monster 8 track Ampex for 300 bucks. I think thread is on it's 50 some pages now. A one inch machine is really overkill and actually a 1/2 inch 2 track is the best, I think.

One black hole at a time please,lol

. I just finished upgrading the 440 and I hadn't really planned on that,but now I'm glad me and Rich teamed up. I still have the MR70 to do and maybe I can squeeze the StuderPex in between,but I need to get the MR70 finished.

tony ky ma said:
I don't have a chance to compare 1/4 vs 1/2 in the same kind of machine same kind of tape also same speed. but I am sure 1/2 must better than 1/4 if all conditions are the same, in recording our master or dubbing from master, different made tapes can have big different in result. I wonder in same speed (15/ips) 1/4 with good tape vs 1/2 with tape not as good as the other one, what result will be ? can anyone know the answer ?
tony ma

Hi Tony,

I want to let my electronics upgrade settle in before I cement my thinking,but I'm convinced that a ultra low distortion studio deck can narrow the gap between 4 track and 2 track 1/4" tape. It will still be recording dependent but a good 4 track can certainly push the envelope,especially on classical music where minimum mics are used. I might be dead wrong on this but my 440 upgrade has me leaning this way.
I don't think there is any way to overcome the seperation difference between 1/4 and 1/2 tape. All this conjecture on my part is only dealing with the best Studio decks and modified ones at that. The A80 and the 440 are great examples.

Gary D · Aug 2, 2011

Specifications from A820 Brochure

Wow and flutter
30 ips - 0.03% max
15 ips - 0.04% max
7.5 ips - 0.06% max
3.75 ips - 0.1% max

Frequency Response (+/- 2 dB)
30 ips - 40 - 22,000 Hz
15 ips - 30 - 20,000 Hz
7.5 ips - 30 - 16,000 Hz
3.75 ips - 30 - 10,000 Hz
Frequency Response (+/- 1 dB)
30 ips - 60 - 20,000 Hz
15 ips - 30 - 18,000 Hz
7.5 ips - 30 - 12,000 Hz
3.75 ips - 30 - 8,000 Hz
Signal-to-Noise NAB (1/4-inch two-track 2.0 mm track, RMS, A-weighted)
30 ips - 75 dB
15 ips - 72 dB
7.5 ips - 73 dB
3.75 ips - 64 dB
Signal-to-Noise NAB (1/2-inch, two-track, 5.0 mm track width, RMS A-weighted)
30 ips - 77 dB
15 ips - 75 dB
7.5 ips - 76 dB
Cross-Talk (at 1 kHz)
Stereo > 55 dB
Two-track > 65 dB

mep · Aug 2, 2011

RogerD said:
LMAO, Hi Ki there's a thread on Home recording were a lucky gent picked up a 1 inch monster 8 track Ampex for 300 bucks. I think thread is on it's 50 some pages now. A one inch machine is really overkill and actually a 1/2 inch 2 track is the best, I think.

One black hole at a time please,lol. I just finished upgrading the 440 and I hadn't really planned on that,but now I'm glad me and Rich teamed up. I still have the MR70 to do and maybe I can squeeze the StuderPex in between,but I need to get the MR70 finished.

I want to let my electronics upgrade settle in before I cement my thinking,but I'm convinced that a ultra low distortion studio deck can narrow the gap between 4 track and 2 track 1/4" tape. It will still be recording dependent but a good 4 track can certainly push the envelope,especially on classical music where minimum mics are used. I might be dead wrong on this but my 440 upgrade has me leaning this way.
I don't think there is any way to overcome the seperation difference between 1/4 and 1/2 tape. All this conjecture on my part is only dealing with the best Studio decks and modified ones at that. The A80 and the 440 are great examples.

Roger-I tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full.

MylesBAstor · Aug 2, 2011

Gary D said:
Specifications from A820 Brochure

Wow and flutter
30 ips - 0.03% max
15 ips - 0.04% max
7.5 ips - 0.06% max
3.75 ips - 0.1% max

Frequency Response (+/- 2 dB)
30 ips - 40 - 22,000 Hz
15 ips - 30 - 20,000 Hz
7.5 ips - 30 - 16,000 Hz
3.75 ips - 30 - 10,000 Hz
Frequency Response (+/- 1 dB)
30 ips - 60 - 20,000 Hz
15 ips - 30 - 18,000 Hz
7.5 ips - 30 - 12,000 Hz
3.75 ips - 30 - 8,000 Hz
Signal-to-Noise NAB (1/4-inch two-track 2.0 mm track, RMS, A-weighted)
30 ips - 75 dB
15 ips - 72 dB
7.5 ips - 73 dB
3.75 ips - 64 dB
Signal-to-Noise NAB (1/2-inch, two-track, 5.0 mm track width, RMS A-weighted)
30 ips - 77 dB
15 ips - 75 dB
7.5 ips - 76 dB
Cross-Talk (at 1 kHz)
Stereo > 55 dB
Two-track > 65 dB

Thanks for the interesting info! Neat to see why, although some engineers claim it's setup, the head bump issue and why 15 ips was selected as a compromise between 71/2 and 30ips. Also interesting to see that S/N differences between speeds disappears with the increased tape width!

RogerD · Aug 2, 2011

mep said:
Roger-I tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full.

Try it now Mark

tony ky ma · Aug 4, 2011

Roger- full again
tony ma

RogerD · Aug 4, 2011

tony ky ma said:
Roger- full again
tony ma

OK Tony fixed it

Mike Lavigne · Aug 4, 2011

regarding 1/2" master tapes.

i have ordered one from the Tape Project to play on my 1/2" A820; but until Paul gets a little free time to get it transfered i'm on hold.

however; next Thursday night, August 11th, our local audio club is having a meeting in my room. i asked Dan if they could 'loan' me a 1/2" demo tape of some sort to play at the meeting. Dan is going me one better; he's having a couple of 1/2" demo reels sent up and will bring them over himself to play on my 1/2" machine for the meeting. there ought to be a cut or two that i have in 1/4" to do an A/B of 1/4" and 1/2" both on Studer A820's.....both mastered from the same source and played on the same machine.

should be interesting.

c1ferrari · Aug 4, 2011

Oh, YEAH

Mike Lavigne said:
regarding 1/2" master tapes.

i have ordered one from the Tape Project to play on my 1/2" A820; but until Paul gets a little free time to get it transfered i'm on hold.

however; next Thursday night, August 11th, our local audio club is having a meeting in my room. i asked Dan if they could 'loan' me a 1/2" demo tape of some sort to play at the meeting. Dan is going me one better; he's having a couple of 1/2" demo reels sent up and will bring them over himself to play on my 1/2" machine for the meeting. there ought to be a cut or two that i have in 1/4" to do an A/B of 1/4" and 1/2" both on Studer A820's.....both mastered from the same source and played on the same machine.

should be interesting.

Gee...I so wish I could be a part of that
Mike, are you going to run both Studers stock or switch the K/C pre between decks?

RogerD · Aug 4, 2011

c1ferrari said:
Gee...I so wish I could be a part of that
Mike, are you going to run both Studers stock or switch the K/C pre between decks?

Me too!To listen to the KC and the stock Studer 1/2 inch should be fun. Playing my master with the volume turned up reminds me of my high school party days. Somebody always had a band set up and there was no doubt the house was rockin.

I have no doubt that the stock Studer sound can be improved,how much? I think by a good amount.

Mike Lavigne · Aug 4, 2011

c1ferrari said:
Gee...I so wish I could be a part of that
Mike, are you going to run both Studers stock or switch the K/C pre between decks?

i wish both you and Roger could be there too.

i don't 'yet' have a head switch for the 1/2" A820 to output that to King Cello, so i'll need to just switch the XLR cables back and forth between them (they are right next to each other) to do an A/B. but i'm also interested in how the 1/4" with KC compares to the stock 1/2".

Mike Lavigne · Aug 4, 2011

RogerD said:
Me too!To listen to the KC and the stock Studer 1/2 inch should be fun. Playing my master with the volume turned up reminds me of my high school party days. Somebody always had a band set up and there was no doubt the house was rockin.

I have no doubt that the stock Studer sound can be improved,how much? I think by a good amount.

the stock Studer can be improved quite a bit. compared to the stock Studer, the King Cello lowers the noise floor, removes a layer of 'haze' that is in the stock signal path, adds air on top, adds bass definition, adds ambient information and allows you to further tweak the output electonics. i added that last bit about tweaking because since i've got the KC, i've improved the power cord, added isolation and dampning to the chassis, and found a better grounded rack. each step improved things....none of which are possible with the stock signal path. (i do use a special Absolute Fidelity power cord on both Studers which optimizes gear with motors, like tt's and RTR decks ).

all that said; the stock 1/4" Studer A820 is very very good sounding. so it's not like you are slumming it with stock.

RogerD · Aug 4, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
i wish both you and Roger could be there too.

i don't 'yet' have a head switch for the 1/2" A820 to output that to King Cello, so i'll need to just switch the XLR cables back and forth between them (they are right next to each other) to do an A/B. but i'm also interested in how the 1/4" with KC compares to the stock 1/2".

I just think this is a perfect test. The 1/2 inch Studer sounds really good, a big sound with ambience and bloom that's just plain fun to listen to. As far as the KC 1/4 inch, should be interesting.

Mike Lavigne · Aug 4, 2011

RogerD said:
I just think this is a perfect test. The 1/2 inch Studer sounds really good, a big sound with ambience and bloom that's just plain fun to listen to. As far as the KC 1/4 inch, should be interesting.

i agree on your 'fun' comment on the 1/2'....big and bold sounding....sure footed. i've done a few test dubs of 1/4" onto 1/2" and the 1/2" does pull you bit different presentation. i'd compare it to what a 45rpm does that a 33 and 1/3rd does not. it has a wider bandwidth which commands the soundstage differently, and has more forward propulsion.

RogerD · Aug 4, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
i agree on your 'fun' comment on the 1/2'....big and bold sounding....sure footed. i've done a few test dubs of 1/4" onto 1/2" and the 1/2" does pull you bit different presentation. i'd compare it to what a 45rpm does that a 33 and 1/3rd does not. it has a wider bandwidth which commands the soundstage differently, and has more forward propulsion.

Exactly.

Now although some might think the 1/4 inch comparison might be unfair, a good "tell" would be the bass signature on the KC. Like I said,it should be interesting.

first 1/2 inch master tape

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