How important is the conductor to you when going to a live concert

Orb · Jul 30, 2011

Well the Proms has come around and this has me thinking about the conductor, for me I can appreciate that the conductor is critical for "shaping" what is played, but to me this is done when they practice with the orchestra.

However, when it comes to the baton and hand waving, do you feel this is critical, and importantly when going to a live concert is this something that you look at or prefer to focus on the orchestra/close the eyes/etc.

I think I could live without that flapping/facial expressions/hand gestures/etc, seems to me when watching Proms on the television the musicians are more focused on the score rather than the conductor (who has already trained them to play the music how he wants IMO).

So is the conductor part of your experience when going to a live show or a distraction?
Cheers
Orb

flez007 · Jul 30, 2011

In my case the conductor is a "plus" when deciding to attend to a concert, it plays more for me the Composer, the program and of course the venue.

Kal Rubinson · Jul 30, 2011

Orb said:
Well the Proms has come around and this has me thinking about the conductor, for me I can appreciate that the conductor is critical for "shaping" what is played, but to me this is done when they practice with the orchestra.

However, when it comes to the baton and hand waving, do you feel this is critical, and importantly when going to a live concert is this something that you look at or prefer to focus on the orchestra/close the eyes/etc.

I think I could live without that flapping/facial expressions/hand gestures/etc, seems to me when watching Proms on the television the musicians are more focused on the score rather than the conductor (who has already trained them to play the music how he wants IMO).

So is the conductor part of your experience when going to a live show or a distraction?
Cheers
Orb

Hmm. The physical performance of the conductor ("the baton and hand waving" and "flapping/facial expressions/hand gestures/etc") is generally irrelevant to me but his/her presence and influence on the performance is critical. Also, I think you underestimate the attention that players give to the conductor. After all, they are probably even more familiar with the score than with him/her.

Kal

FrantzM · Jul 30, 2011

Hi

The conductor has a lot to do with what you finally listen to. The score is the map tells them the direction to get to, the destination. How they get there in the same car is the responsibility of the Conductor. Do they get there quickly, slowly, comfortably? This is the conductor/pilot doing.
The sound of a given orchestra varies from conductor to conductor, the pace of the music, the length of the interpretation. It remains difficult to compare same orchestra with different conductors if one rely on recordings although the differences stand clear, but one can object, with reason, that it is due to variables such as the pieces, recording venues, recording techniques, etc outside the conductor In the same concert hall and same orchestra it becomes clearer .. I had the opportunity to witness this during the transition in NY from Zubin Mehta to Kurt Masur ... The orchestra, The New York Philharmonic, sounded flamboyant and almost exultant with Mehta.. With Kurt Masur Interpretations were tight and controlled ... Forceful when comes the time... Unfortunately I had never been able to compare the two playing the same pieces, yet one could easily tell how much more controlled the playing of Masur was, some found, too controlled especially when compared to the flamboyance and exuberance of the orchestra under Mehta, then.. I haven't followed their recent output (both Mehta and Masur) ... Which gives me an idea

.. So much music to discover ...

DonH50 · Jul 30, 2011

Despite all the jokes (and I have probably heard them all and said most) the conductor is quite important to the musicians. Keeping everything(one) together in a performance is crucial, and there are always little tempo and dynamic shifts that happen in a performance that must be resolved. The myriad of quick glances that musicians take probably aren't caught on camera, but it happens constantly. There are also places where the music is memorized so eyes can follow closely or parts where it is tricky to stay together. As Kal said, watching TV or even live you probably cannot tell just how often we look for the stick.

And, of course, this doesn't begin to speak the many hours of preparation, all led by the conductor... - Don

microstrip · Jul 30, 2011

Don,

Some of the jokes even showed up in hifi reviews as a nice starter to justify sophisticated gear:

http://www.avguide.com/review/tas-194-wilson-audio-specialties-maxx-3-loudspeaker

Concerning the many hours of preparation, there is an wonderful CD of Bruno Walter rehearsing Mozart Symphony n.36 that tells it all:

http://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Symphony-Rehearsal-Performance/dp/B000002A82/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312048676&sr=8-1

Ra - tata - tati

Orb · Jul 30, 2011

Kal Rubinson said:
Hmm. The physical performance of the conductor ("the baton and hand waving" and "flapping/facial expressions/hand gestures/etc") is generally irrelevant to me but his/her presence and influence on the performance is critical. Also, I think you underestimate the attention that players give to the conductor. After all, they are probably even more familiar with the score than with him/her.

Kal

You are probably right there Kal,
I do respect how critical they are for the creation of the performance but less so with their presence on the day, mainly as it is the music I go to listen for and find some conductors can be distracting.
But I thought I would mention it as the Proms is back around and if watching on a large TV that baton waving and facial expression can be a bit much

Was interested what others felt so thanks to all who posted.
What is interesting though is when the conductor is a performing musician in the orchestra, and this has happened quite a few times and still works, no batton waving from that piano but maybe some big nose waving instead haha

Cheers
Orb

Soundminded · May 1, 2012

"How important is the conductor to you when going to a live concert"

Indispensable, without him I couldn't go at all. Without him....who'd drive the train?

Keith_W · May 17, 2012

Just stumbled on this thread. The answer is: ABSOLUTELY important! All you need to do is listen to a badly conducted piece of music to be convinced. Think of the players as jitter - each of them wants to play at their own time, using their own phrasing. The conductor is the master clock who whips the rabble into shape. Imagine 20 violinists trying to play a piece - if they don't all play together, the result is muddy sound. If they don't play at the right volume, they will be drowned out by louder instruments (wind instruments come to mind). At the most basic level, the conductor has to ensure they play together, and at the correct loudness.

Orb · May 18, 2012

Just want to say I do agree the conductor is essential as it is they who interpret the structure-composition of the music.
But what I am less inclined towards is the exaggerated motions and facial expressions we see, that especially stand out when watching say the Proms on TV.
A good case showing this is not needed; all one has to do is look for great concerts where the conductor is actually a musician as well and from them there is no batton or exaggerated movements, while rare these concerts and conductors do exist.

I guess it was watching the Proms that put it into perspective for me regarding conductors' personal show as I would call it, although I appreciate it can also just be them getting caught up-passionate about the music, but then I am sure the musicians in the orchestra are also passionate and they do not act the same way.
Cheers
Orb

MylesBAstor · May 18, 2012

Keith_W said:
Just stumbled on this thread. The answer is: ABSOLUTELY important! All you need to do is listen to a badly conducted piece of music to be convinced. Think of the players as jitter - each of them wants to play at their own time, using their own phrasing. The conductor is the master clock who whips the rabble into shape. Imagine 20 violinists trying to play a piece - if they don't all play together, the result is muddy sound. If they don't play at the right volume, they will be drowned out by louder instruments (wind instruments come to mind). At the most basic level, the conductor has to ensure they play together, and at the correct loudness.

Very good point. And it is sometimes very diffiicult for an orchestra playing in one hall with its attendent sonics going on tour and adapting to playing in other other halls. For instance, when Carnegie was recently remodeled, the musicians complained they couldn't hear one another while playing onstage. The Boston Symphony has often suffered from this issue where they have had to mute say the brass because of the dynamics of BSH.

MylesBAstor · May 18, 2012

Orb said:
Well the Proms has come around and this has me thinking about the conductor, for me I can appreciate that the conductor is critical for "shaping" what is played, but to me this is done when they practice with the orchestra.

However, when it comes to the baton and hand waving, do you feel this is critical, and importantly when going to a live concert is this something that you look at or prefer to focus on the orchestra/close the eyes/etc.

I think I could live without that flapping/facial expressions/hand gestures/etc, seems to me when watching Proms on the television the musicians are more focused on the score rather than the conductor (who has already trained them to play the music how he wants IMO).

So is the conductor part of your experience when going to a live show or a distraction?
Cheers
Orb

It all has to be balance, conductor, orchestra and music. For instance, would you rather hear a great conductor with a student orchestra or an average conductor with a great orchestra? And I don't care who it is, I'd have a hard to listening to some composers

Kal Rubinson · May 18, 2012

Orb said:
Just want to say I do agree the conductor is essential as it is they who interpret the structure-composition of the music.
But what I am less inclined towards is the exaggerated motions and facial expressions we see, that especially stand out when watching say the Proms on TV.
A good case showing this is not needed; all one has to do is look for great concerts where the conductor is actually a musician as well and from them there is no batton or exaggerated movements, while rare these concerts and conductors do exist.

That is something separate. Some are, indeed, caught up in their emotions of the moment and some are trying to be showmen. I am not sure if Monteux's minimal stick movement at concerts is indicative of his being more of a musician than some more effusive conductors, like Solti and Bernstein. If genuine, it is just personal style.

I guess it was watching the Proms that put it into perspective for me regarding conductors' personal show as I would call it, although I appreciate it can also just be them getting caught up-passionate about the music, but then I am sure the musicians in the orchestra are also passionate and they do not act the same way.

Their hands are busy.

Orb · May 18, 2012

Kal,
exactly my point.
And the musician playing conductor does not seem to have any negative affects on the orchestra when considering the really good concerts.
Probably because of the length of time the orchestra and conductor go over what is to be played and the lengthy practice sessions.

So in reality, there is no need for facial expressions and body language we would normally see in a bad B-movie

I guess it is because we now get too close to conductors due to television broadcasting (especially the Proms-Royal Albert Hall that many conductors seem to love), some may not realise what they are doing but I just feel some are playing up to the camera.
All IMO of course, but try watching Proms on TV most nights when it is back on, warning some conductors may cause nightmares

Cheers
Orb

Keith_W · May 18, 2012

As Benjamin Zander said - the only member of the orchestra who does not make a sound is the conductor. Instead, the conductor makes music by inspiring others into making sounds. This is why they don't stand there beating time like a metronome.

Kal Rubinson · May 18, 2012

Orb said:
Kal,
So in reality, there is no need for facial expressions and body language we would normally see in a bad B-movie

Who cares? I tend to ignore the video entirely on most concert BDs after the first play and just listen. And, at a live concert, I can look elsewhere if I choose. Frankly, the conductor's observable behavior is never an issue for me.

DonH50 · May 18, 2012

Me neither. Especially when playing from the back row...

Here's another interesting viewpoint: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2003/nov/22/classicalmusicandopera1/print

Orb · May 19, 2012

I guess it became OTT for me because I was watching a concert nearly every night for about 2 months - duration of The Proms (could not go in 2011).
I agree it never used to be an issue for me, until watching nearly all of The Proms on TV.
It is rather difficult to look elsewhere when watching it on TV, and I am just commenting on what seems a new trend in conductor behaviour (not all I agree), never noticed this before over the 30 years I have been following-attending concerts.

Just so everyone knows, I am not being overly critical but light hearted (agree some of my comments are a bit OTT) in what I see is an ongoing trend of conductors becoming more aware of cameras.
Cheers
Orb

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