Thanks for the comments guys. The last two weeks of waiting were long weeks. Nirvana at last! Rich, it must have been hell waiting as long as you did for your outstanding speakers.
magneplanars
- Thread starter hifitommy
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...I would like to see a better sensitivity figure ... It has to come since the 20.1 consist of two ( 2) 3.6 sandwiched together
The 20.1 uses larger panels than the 3.x... I believe Wendell is on record saying a 20.2 is not in development but who knows... They may be working quietly on scaling up the QR panel manufacturing as we speak!
Alas, low sensitivity is a trade for panels, I am not sure it is possible to significantly improve. Maybe once room-temp superconductors are practical they can implement SC magnets and wiring, that should help!
Fred, enjoy!
Alas, low sensitivity is a trade for panels, I am not sure it is possible to significantly improve. Maybe once room-temp superconductors are practical they can implement SC magnets and wiring, that should help!
Fred, enjoy!
The 20.1 uses larger panels than the 3.x... I believe Wendell is on record saying a 20.2 is not in development but who knows... They may be working quietly on scaling up the QR panel manufacturing as we speak!
Alas, low sensitivity is a trade for panels, I am not sure it is possible to significantly improve. Maybe once room-temp superconductors are practical they can implement SC magnets and wiring, that should help!
Fred, enjoy!
It is possible that the Maggies could be more efficient. From what I recollect, Wendell once told me they felt it was a tradeoff between efficiency and noise (distortion?) in the design.
George Cardas's pair, in which he gutted the speakers and even used his own wire on the panels, is about 3 dB more efficient. Apparently, Magnepan is not interested in this mod.
It's been a stark contrast around here since yesterday. Coming from 97db Klipsch speakers to 86db Magneplanars. The difference clearly shows up on the volume knob. But I can't kid myself in light of the stark reality. The Maggies beat any Klipsch I have ever heard by a wide margin. So if it's just question of watts, I can address that and have quite a good time doing it.
Hi Fred,
Congratulations again, for finally experiencing the Maggies. I can feel what you feel at the moment, as I had the same feeling when I first heard the Maggies in my own place - I was smiling and there was joy in my heart. I had some 'fear' or reservations that the 2.7QR would not measure up to the B&W 800s (which Lewis Lipnick proclaimed as perfect in a Stereophile review). The B&Ws were highly efficient too at 90 or 91db if I'm not mistaken but when I played a CD of the OST of The Mambo Kings with lots of horns and percussion, I thought to myself then that the Maggie did not only hold its own against the big 800s but was actually giving them a run for its money. At this point (14 years and running), I would still say that the transparency, openness, balanced projection of soundstage width, depth and height, and the palpable midband (Maureen McGovern never sounded more lush) are traits that makes me 'not' miss my 800s. Nothing much had interested me that was not 4 or 5x the amount I paid for my Maggies. That only thing ultimately that I miss is the tremendous bass volume and impact the B&W woofers produce but I have accepted that as a worthy trade off, specially when the price I paid for is considered - if I'm not mistaken, $1995 vs. $12,000 SRP. The direct effect is that I don't play my Telarc LPs like '1812' and 'Straussfest' that much.
Hi Fred,
Congratulations again, for finally experiencing the Maggies. I can feel what you feel at the moment, as I had the same feeling when I first heard the Maggies in my own place - I was smiling and there was joy in my heart. I had some 'fear' or reservations that the 2.7QR would not measure up to the B&W 800s (which Lewis Lipnick proclaimed as perfect in a Stereophile review). The B&Ws were highly efficient too at 90 or 91db if I'm not mistaken but when I played a CD of the OST of The Mambo Kings with lots of horns and percussion, I thought to myself then that the Maggie did not only hold its own against the big 800s but was actually giving them a run for its money. At this point (14 years and running), I would still say that the transparency, openness, balanced projection of soundstage width, depth and height, and the palpable midband (Maureen McGovern never sounded more lush) are traits that makes me 'not' miss my 800s. Nothing much had interested me that was not 4 or 5x the amount I paid for my Maggies. That only thing ultimately that I miss is the tremendous bass volume and impact the B&W woofers produce but I have accepted that as a worthy trade off, specially when the price I paid for is considered - if I'm not mistaken, $1995 vs. $12,000 SRP. The direct effect is that I don't play my Telarc LPs like '1812' and 'Straussfest' that much.
Excellent post Phil. I can only imagine the shock and awe factor of those 800's during the cannon fire on the 1812. Surely must have been a jolting experience. I think though, that mating the Maggies with the right woofer/sub would accomplish the exact experience and still bring all of those special Maggie qualities that you mentioned. And, BTW, I notice them too. I'm going to break out my original vinyl pressing of Ricky Lee Jones first LP in a bit. Talk about the shear quality of the female voice. Now, that's an album.
Thanks Fred. Yeah, a good sub could make it complete though that's a realm that I'm not yet ready to get into. Well, I take only so much cannon shots but I can take lots and lots of doses of Rickie Lee Jones.
Hi
I would invite my fellow Magnepan-philes to look into subwoofers more seriously. There is lot of misinformation and myths floating in the audiophile world about subwoofers. These need to be debunked and dispeled.
At the outset let me hasten to tell you that I am no "flat-earther" objectivist by that those who think that everything sound the same. I don't share that extreme view. I do believe that electronics and speakers do sound different. I believe in room treatment and I believe in the physics of sound reproduction. A scientific endeavor.
On this the proper reproduction of bass is the foundation of music.. Any music..from chamber music to hip-hop or New Age, Any Music... Even the human voice reproduction, benefits from the proper reproduction of the lows in one's listening room. In most instances, one needs subwoofers, notice the plural. One of the most pervasive myths in the high end audio sphere, is that of the "slow" subwoofers not able to keep up with the "fast" panels. This simply is not true. It doesn't mean that there aren't out there bad subwoofers. There are and several, sometimes expensive ones. No it means that good , competent subwoofers can integrate with ANY speakers... And Magnepan is no exception. One can integrate the Maggies with subwoofers and the results when they are properly dialed in, are heavenly. It takes work, lot of work. It takes an open mind to experiment. For example one of the best product for bass mangement I know of is the behringer DCX-2496, I am sure it is heresy for many audiophiles, yet this unit is superior to anything one is likely to find in subwoofers at ANY price.
The thread is not about subwoofers but about Magneoan. Supplementing Magnepan with subwoofers will take what are already very good to excellent speakers to SOTA levels, at a (small) fraction of the price. I prefer DIY subs but understand that it is not for everybody (including myself ). A system comprised of the Magnepan 3.7 with a pair (would have preferred a trio) of Paradigm SUB-1 subwoofers will only be surpassed by speakers costing well over 7 times the price... Such a super-Maggie system will set you back $15,500 MSRP... This could be my next speaker system, the more I think of it
I would invite my fellow Magnepan-philes to look into subwoofers more seriously. There is lot of misinformation and myths floating in the audiophile world about subwoofers. These need to be debunked and dispeled.
At the outset let me hasten to tell you that I am no "flat-earther" objectivist by that those who think that everything sound the same. I don't share that extreme view. I do believe that electronics and speakers do sound different. I believe in room treatment and I believe in the physics of sound reproduction. A scientific endeavor.
On this the proper reproduction of bass is the foundation of music.. Any music..from chamber music to hip-hop or New Age, Any Music... Even the human voice reproduction, benefits from the proper reproduction of the lows in one's listening room. In most instances, one needs subwoofers, notice the plural. One of the most pervasive myths in the high end audio sphere, is that of the "slow" subwoofers not able to keep up with the "fast" panels. This simply is not true. It doesn't mean that there aren't out there bad subwoofers. There are and several, sometimes expensive ones. No it means that good , competent subwoofers can integrate with ANY speakers... And Magnepan is no exception. One can integrate the Maggies with subwoofers and the results when they are properly dialed in, are heavenly. It takes work, lot of work. It takes an open mind to experiment. For example one of the best product for bass mangement I know of is the behringer DCX-2496, I am sure it is heresy for many audiophiles, yet this unit is superior to anything one is likely to find in subwoofers at ANY price.
The thread is not about subwoofers but about Magneoan. Supplementing Magnepan with subwoofers will take what are already very good to excellent speakers to SOTA levels, at a (small) fraction of the price. I prefer DIY subs but understand that it is not for everybody (including myself
). A system comprised of the Magnepan 3.7 with a pair (would have preferred a trio) of Paradigm SUB-1 subwoofers will only be surpassed by speakers costing well over 7 times the price... Such a super-Maggie system will set you back $15,500 MSRP... This could be my next speaker system, the more I think of it
I had a heckuva a time finding a sub I liked back in the 80's. I ended up building my own servo design back when such designs were extremely rare and "new". I used a LDI control circuit and dual voice coil driver from an Infinity QLS, with the lo-Z coil providing feedback. It was 3 dB down to 16 Hz and sounded great to me (and all who listened though they could have just been being nice to me) after I finally got it all dialed in. I must brag that we stuck it in several DBT's around the region and it fared very well, winning or at the top compared to some very pricey competition. Still have the system, but I am now using a pair of Rythmik F12's. I do prefer dual subs rather than a single LFE-type system, partly because of localization and such.
Good question, not sure I remember... I was also biamping the panels, but Magnepan suggested a fairly low-order slope. I think I used 2nd-order (12 dB/octave) LPF on the sub at around 40 - 45 Hz (I tweaked for the room) though it might have been 2nd-order (and 3rd-order rumble filter, which I think I set around 18 Hz), 2nd-order HPF on the bass panel's bottom end, and I cannot recall if it was 1st or 2nd order LPF/HPF for the bass/mid+tweeter split (I biamped plus an active sub, I did not change the internal crossover to the ribbon tweeter). I tweaked settings a bit with measurements as Magnepan only provide approximate guidelines, and played around with different crossover slopes. After getting rid of my active crossover for the panels I used first-order (built into my peamp outputs) for all amp crossovers (the sub still had it's own crossover, of course).
Moscode is having a sale. www.moscode.com or if solid state is your thing try Dons' Emotiva amps.
Hi
I would invite my fellow Magnepan-philes to look into subwoofers more seriously. There is lot of misinformation and myths floating in the audiophile world about subwoofers. These need to be debunked and dispeled.
At the outset let me hasten to tell you that I am no "flat-earther" objectivist by that those who think that everything sound the same. I don't share that extreme view. I do believe that electronics and speakers do sound different. I believe in room treatment and I believe in the physics of sound reproduction. A scientific endeavor.
On this the proper reproduction of bass is the foundation of music.. Any music..from chamber music to hip-hop or New Age, Any Music... Even the human voice reproduction, benefits from the proper reproduction of the lows in one's listening room. In most instances, one needs subwoofers, notice the plural. One of the most pervasive myths in the high end audio sphere, is that of the "slow" subwoofers not able to keep up with the "fast" panels. This simply is not true. It doesn't mean that there aren't out there bad subwoofers. There are and several, sometimes expensive ones. No it means that good , competent subwoofers can integrate with ANY speakers... And Magnepan is no exception. One can integrate the Maggies with subwoofers and the results when they are properly dialed in, are heavenly. It takes work, lot of work. It takes an open mind to experiment. For example one of the best product for bass mangement I know of is the behringer DCX-2496, I am sure it is heresy for many audiophiles, yet this unit is superior to anything one is likely to find in subwoofers at ANY price.
The thread is not about subwoofers but about Magneoan. Supplementing Magnepan with subwoofers will take what are already very good to excellent speakers to SOTA levels, at a (small) fraction of the price. I prefer DIY subs but understand that it is not for everybody (including myself
I totally agree with Frantz here. Despite Magnepan being a competitor, I still keep a pair of 3.6's that I occasionally set up in the reception area of the factory for background music. It keeps me grounded that for the price, there is so much musicality and enjoyment to be had.
Adding a sub is not easy, but adds IMHO the icing to the cake. Here are a couple of tricks I learned over the years integrating subs to the 3.6's (which I've had for nearly 14 years now - longer than I've had Genesis).
1) There is no such thing as a fast or a slow subwoofer, only how it is integrated. I found that if the subwoofer is driven by its line-level inputs from the preamp, it will sound slow. This is because there is group delay in the main power amplifier feeding the Maggies (especially if it's tube), and then there is group delay in the subwoofer crossover and power amplifier. These two group delay added up can leave the bass a phase or more behind the Maggies. Better to drive the subwoofer through its speaker-level binding posts by tapping off the input to the Maggies then you only have to account for the group delay of the subwoofer crossover and power amp.
2) Do not use a big, fat speaker cable for this jumper between the Maggie and the subwoofer speaker binding posts. Use an old interconnect that you have, cut both ends off. This is because a powered subwoofer is an amplifier, not a loudspeaker, and it has a high impedance input (even the speaker level binding posts).
3) Place the subwoofer in front of the Maggies, and not behind. I once placed a 15" subwoofer behind each Maggie and found that the bass rattled the panels. Now, I use a single dual side-firing subwoofer with my 3.6's. Because of group delay, etc. In front also works better in my experience with most subwoofers. This is usually because the 3.6's have a 2nd order crossover, and most subwoofers have 4th order or higher in the low-pass crossover.
4) Experiment with height. I found that having a subwoofer off the ground worked best with my 3.6's - but it's not very practical unless the subwoofer does not vibrate much with self-cancelling horizontally opposed drivers (good example is the Martin Logan Depth).
Sorry if I'm out of line posting on another manufacturer's forum. I'll delete the post if there are any objections.
That is true. An even cheaper approach that takes up less space and is also IMO easier to do because one isn't dealing with unbalanced-balanced adapters and consumer vs. pro level issues, is the miniDSP.
Regardless of the specific box used, the real key to integrating subwoofers with mains is taking good measurements.
The other thing to consider is that one should really be thinking of subwoofers in terms of multiples, not just one. (Unless one is just running it below 40Hz or so. Then just stick one in the corner.) One sub will lead to erratic upper bass response. Three or so subs driving the room from different points in the room really smooth out the upper bass response.
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My wife has given me the go-ahead on the 1.7s. Will be adding these at the end of the month. Probably have the new KT120s in the amp by then as well.
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