Psycho-acoustic memory and the Audio Illusionist.

[DonH50]

We should be careful what we call "auditory memory" and how we use the term... Seconds for an AB test, sure. However, if I put away my Magnepans for a week, then replaced them with a pair of midrange Klipsch horns, I am pretty sure I could hear the difference and accurately describe it. (Months, maybe depends on how old you are... ) And, decades after he passed away, I can still "hear" my grandfather's voice. I do not interject this to argue definitions of terms, just to highlight that the definition and context are important...

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think that's more a question of the size of the gap than the length of the memory. The differences between speakers, and human voices can be/often is dramatic. Identifying them doesn't require A/B switching at all; the speed of such switching is irrelevant. The differences between amps, preamps, DACs, etc. should be, and usually is very subtle if audible at all. That's where we may need to switch very quickly, or give ourselves more time to hear what we want to hear.

Tim

[JackD201]

I think that's more a question of the size of the gap than the length of the memory. The differences between speakers, and human voices can be/often is dramatic. Identifying them doesn't require A/B switching at all; the speed of such switching is irrelevant. The differences between amps, preamps, DACs, etc. should be, and usually is very subtle if audible at all. That's where we may need to switch very quickly, or give ourselves more time to hear what we want to hear.

Tim

Yup, I agree.

[mep]

Does anyone ever wonder if the differences we do hear in electronics are due to aberrations in the frequency response that were either deliberately designed in or happened as a result of the circuit design/topology?

There should be a difference in sound between a tube power amp and a SS power amp due to the output transformer used in tube amps. Tube amps also aren’t going to have the iron grip control in the bass that good SS amps do because of their low dampening factor.

The gap between SS preamps and tube preamps sound-wise should be much smaller. How hard is it to make a circuit linear from 20 Hz to 20 KHz? Not very is the correct answer. So, unless you have designed in some dips and peaks in order to emphasize some part of the frequency range, we should really be down to listening to the differences between passive parts that are used in the circuit. And if you have a preamp with coke-can sized Teflon capacitors, you have to wait 8 years for the caps to break in before your preamp doesn’t sound horrid anymore (just kidding Myles!). Seriously, some people have a religion with capacitors. It has to be paper in oil, or they have to be Teflon or MIT, or Mundorf get out your platinum credit card caps. And that’s just the film caps. There is another whole religion with electrolytic caps unless of course you are CJ and you don’t use them at all.

The bottom line is that with properly designed audio circuits, there shouldn’t be huge differences in sound quality.

[MylesBAstor]

Does anyone ever wonder if the differences we do hear in electronics are due to aberrations in the frequency response that were either deliberately designed in or happened as a result of the circuit design/topology?

There should be a difference in sound between a tube power amp and a SS power amp due to the output transformer used in tube amps. Tube amps also aren’t going to have the iron grip control in the bass that good SS amps do because of their low dampening factor.

The gap between SS preamps and tube preamps sound-wise should be much smaller. How hard is it to make a circuit linear from 20 Hz to 20 KHz? Not very is the correct answer. So, unless you have designed in some dips and peaks in order to emphasize some part of the frequency range, we should really be down to listening to the differences between passive parts that are used in the circuit. And if you have a preamp with coke-can sized Teflon capacitors, you have to wait 8 years for the caps to break in before your preamp doesn’t sound horrid anymore (just kidding Myles!). Seriously, some people have a religion with capacitors. It has to be paper in oil, or they have to be Teflon or MIT, or Mundorf get out your platinum credit card caps. And that’s just the film caps. There is another whole religion with electrolytic caps unless of course you are CJ and you don’t use them at all.

The bottom line is that with properly designed audio circuits, there shouldn’t be huge differences in sound quality.

Well actually the caps in preamplifiers are easy to burn-in Just plug in that CD player and let it rip. Not that many tubes in a preamp and they are of the small signal variety, so not much cost involved in replacing them (unless one is of course using some exotic NOS.)

Tube amps on the other hand, are a different monster. Don't know too many people who like to leave their tube amplifiers on for a week or two straight. And that's 336 out of say 2000 hrs lifetime shot already And we're not talking chump change here; retubing the cj ART retube runs a cool $1600/set of tubes. And think about what it costs to retube a ARC 610T Of course, the caps in a tube amp may form quicker than that of a tube preamp because of the voltage involved.

[mep]

Well actually the caps in preamplifiers are easy to burn-in Just plug in that CD player and let it rip. Not that many tubes in a preamp and they are of the small signal variety, so not much cost involved in replacing them (unless one is of course using some exotic NOS.)

Tube amps on the other hand, are a different monster. Don't know too many people who like to leave their tube amplifiers on for a week or two straight. And that's 336 out of say 2000 hrs lifetime shot already And we're not talking chump change here; retubing the cj ART retube runs a cool $1600/set of tubes. And think about what it costs to retube a ARC 610T Of course, the caps in a tube amp may form quicker than that of a tube preamp because of the voltage involved.

I often found myself not listening to my system because I knew I only had about an hour to sit down and listen and I didn't want to fire up my tube amp and let it warm up for an hour only to listen to it for an hour. Now that I have crossed back over to the dark side, my system stays turned on 24/7 (except for my Ampex 350s) so it is always ready to listen to. And yeah, I'm not going to miss retubing my Jadis Defy 7 MKII. 12 KT-88s aren't cheap either. I damn sure won't miss biasing that monster. The Defy 7 has one of the dumbest bias schemes around.

[DaveyF]

Mark, I have to agree with you that waiting for your system to "warm up" isn't that great. Otoh, i tend to take that into consideration these days and just come back to listen after about 1/2 hour.
The benefits of tube amps are, IMO, worth the headaches of ownership However, I'm a little lucky as I have a good tech nearby. Otoh, when my ss Rowland is in the system,I do have a greater sense of shall we say...... Security

[Phelonious Ponk]

The bottom line is that with properly designed audio circuits, there shouldn’t be huge differences in sound quality.

Mark, you are soooooo close to crossing over.

Tim

[tomelex]

I often found myself not listening to my system because I knew I only had about an hour to sit down and listen and I didn't want to fire up my tube amp and let it warm up for an hour only to listen to it for an hour. Now that I have crossed back over to the dark side, my system stays turned on 24/7 (except for my Ampex 350s) so it is always ready to listen to. And yeah, I'm not going to miss retubing my Jadis Defy 7 MKII. 12 KT-88s aren't cheap either. I damn sure won't miss biasing that monster. The Defy 7 has one of the dumbest bias schemes around.

Thats interesting. IME once a power tube has a couple hundred hours on it (speaking generally here) it sounds the same to me after a few minutes of warmup. Of course, I am talking SET amps, which are shall we say "musical by nature".

Tom

[FrantzM]

Mark, you are soooooo close to crossing over.

Tim

He's already crossed over ..