Weiss Saracon

fas42 · Nov 18, 2011

In maths, truncation means literally dropping numbers past a certain decimal place: so, 0.234 and 0.235 both become 0.23; in rounding 0.234 and .235 become 0.23 and 0.24 respectively. Subtle difference, but it could be meaningful ...

Frank

billh · Nov 18, 2011

Yeah, I understand the difference between the terms mathematically, just didn't know how those terms affect the file conversion process and which would be the recommended setting. I hate to set out and spend all the time converting these ISOs only to have to go back and do them all again because of some setting I goofed on. All those packages (Audiogate, Philips AFC, Saracon, Pyramix) have settings for normalize, dithering and filters.........Just at a loss as to general best settings. I'm not expert by any means - just gettng some SACD's into flac format for playback via NAS hard drive to stream in my house. Won't be doing any editing or anything later on. Just straight conversion from DSDIFF into PCM and then FLAC.
Any suggestions are appreciated!

pepar · Nov 19, 2011

billh said:
Since there are no players or streamers on the market at present (that I know about) that will stream DSD or ISO rips of SACD, I need to get the DSD into flac and want the best conversion I can afford. Using a PS3 and SACD Ripper, I can extract the ISO and DSD files now - just need to get into FLAC.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

There is some discussion on Networked Media Tank forum about a user-added app, Music Player Daemon, for Popcorn Hour that will read DSDIFF from digital storage. It will handle them by converting on-the-fly to hi-res PCM and sent to receiver/processor over HDMI.

Discussion starts here - http://www.networkedmediatank.com/showthread.php?tid=55875&pid=521562#pid521562

And then linked to the actual thread on the app here - http://www.networkedmediatank.com/showthread.php?tid=38371

For someone, like me, looking for an all-in-one solution, this has promise.

Jeff

billh · Nov 19, 2011

Can anyone tell me what "DIIN chunk not supported" and "LSCO chunk not supported" in the output log file mean? I have quite a few lines of these and curious if they are of any importance and if they are, how should I repair/fix/prevent?

Thanks.

amirm · Nov 19, 2011

I don't know the tool but a quick look of the spec shows this:

DIIN: This is an optional area for mastering information. From the spec: "The Edited Master Information Chunk is a container chunk for storing edited master information. " Based on this, you can safely ignore the message.

LSCO: This is another optional area dealing with speaker configuration: "The Loudspeaker Configuration Chunk defines the set-up of the loudspeakers." I suspect your media playback system has no way of recognizing this metadata either so you can ignore it for now. Here is the config parameters:

0 2-channel stereo set-up
1..2 Reserved for future use
3 5-channel set-up according to ITU-R BS.775-1 [ITU]
4 6-channel set-up, 5-channel set-up according to ITU-R BS.775-1 [ITU], plus
additional Low Frequency Enhancement (LFE) loudspeaker. Also known as
"5.1 configuration"
5..65534 Reserved for future us

billh · Nov 19, 2011

^^^
Thank you.

I did a 6 channel DSDIFF to FLAC using Saracon @ 88K and it didn't sound good - the highs were on the bright side and dynamics were edgy. I went back and looked at the log and saw all those chunk errors and thought maybe they were the issue. But from your note above, it doesn't sound like it.

I just did the same track at 176K and will compare to see how it sounds. It is Pink Floyd's MONEY with the thumping bass at the beginning and all the cash registers floating around and then that crazy sax gets thrown it - great workout to see how the conversion is working.

pepar · Jan 7, 2012

Bill, foobar2000 has a DSDIFF decoder plugin available that reads SACD ISO and outputs FLAC, including multichannel. I have not yet been able to do listening comparisons on my "serious" system yet, so I only know that it does it, not how well it does it.

Jeff

billh · Jan 18, 2012

^^
I am using an Oppo BDP-93 for my streaming. I do have Foobar on my computers but I don't have my computers routed through my home theater for streaming. Might be something I will look at in the future. Would have to somehow network my computer to the pre/pro and I haven't even looked at doing that yet.
I will soon be adding another 100 square feet to my room to make it a full blown home theater with 3D projector and better speakers. Will probably be tied up with that for most of the year.

pepar · Jan 18, 2012

I have yet to be able to listen to anything not physical media on my main theater system, so I *still* haven't been able to do comparison listening. When I get closer to returning from Mexico I will order a Popcorn Hour media player and finally get to listen. My Onk 5508 could read media files across the network, but it has bit/sampling limits that makes it not really a hi-res streamer.

Jeff

billh · Jan 18, 2012

Yeah, same issue here.

I have a Denon AVP A1HDCI pre/pro which will stream; However, it will only stream 2 channel FLAC at 16/44. It will do WAV a bit better but still no raw DSD streaming which is what we are after.

bblue · Jan 19, 2012

Perhaps this has been mentioned elsewhere, but several of the early Oppo CD/DVD players (and a few other brands) that can play SACD have a built-in DSD->PCM chip to output PCM via the HDMI signal. You can then use an HDMI switcher/splitter with S/PDIF audio takeoff to feed a digital workstation and record direct to wav files at the proper sample rate and bit depth. I don't know what the quality is of the DSD->PCM chipset, but it seems to sound quite good, and is very comparable to a DVD-A software rip of the same master source. I use an older DV-980H and Monoprice HDMI switcher for the audio takeoff, into Reaper.

--Bill

pepar · Jan 19, 2012

I'm pretty sure that Optical (and digital coax) do not have the bandwidth to carry hi-res audio which means down-sampling. (Upping it after that is pointless.) This is a dealbreaker for many. Maybe on the What's Quite Good Forum, though?

Jeff

rbbert · Jan 19, 2012

pepar said:
I'm pretty sure that Optical (and digital coax) do not have the bandwidth to carry hi-res audio which means down-sampling. (Upping it after that is pointless.) This is a dealbreaker for many. Maybe on the What's Quite Good Forum, though?

Jeff

This is the second decade of the 21st century. You can be quite sure that Oppo and other "audiophile" brands (including Sony and Pioneer, and probably Onkyo and others) will output at least 24/96 when that is the source resolution. Oppo (at least) will output 24/192 over coax from DVD-A's with that source resolution (personal experience and confirmed by Oppo)

pepar · Jan 19, 2012

rbbert said:
This is the second decade of the 21st century. You can be quite sure that Oppo and other "audiophile" brands (including Sony and Pioneer, and probably Onkyo and others) will output at least 24/96 when that is the source resolution. Oppo (at least) will output 24/192 over coax from DVD-A's with that source resolution (personal experience and confirmed by Oppo)

The bottleneck would not be the PCM output of the player, it would be the S/PDIF output (of the splitter/switch) and the protocols it follows. It can carry two channels of PCM audio or a multi-channel compressed surround sound format such as Dolby Digital or DTS. But, hey, they sound quite good!

Right back at ya!

Jeff

rbbert · Jan 19, 2012

pepar said:
The bottleneck would not be the PCM output of the player, it would be the S/PDIF output (of the splitter/switch) and the protocols it follows. It can carry two channels of PCM audio or a multi-channel compressed surround sound format such as Dolby Digital or DTS. But, hey, they sound quite good!

Right back at ya!

Jeff

Yes, 2 channels of PCM audio up to 24/192. I thought we were talking about stereo, not multi-channel. The DVD-A specs don't allow digital out above 16/48 for multi-channel.

pepar · Jan 19, 2012

rbbert said:
Yes, 2 channels of PCM audio up to 24/192. I thought we were talking about stereo, not multi-channel. The DVD-A specs don't allow digital out above 16/48 for multi-channel.

Ahhh, OK. The thread is about a particular piece of software, but recent chatter has been about stereo and mch DSD. I haven't counted the instances of each, but I *think* it's been more multichannel than stereo. If you find otherwise, then I will admit I was wrong.

BTW, DVD-Audio supports full 5.1 surround at up to 96KHz and 24-bits.

Jeff

rbbert · Jan 19, 2012

But it will not output that resolution over S/PDIF, only to a player's internal DAC or out over HDMI.

pepar · Jan 19, 2012

Sure, but the workflow you mentioned seems a kludge when we have tools like SACD Ripper and Extract.

Gadgety · Feb 10, 2012

rbbert said:
But it will not output that resolution over S/PDIF, only to a player's internal DAC or out over HDMI.

Unless you are using DVD-upgrades 6 channels converter. https://www.dvdupgrades.ch/product/...t/Six-channel-S-P-DIF-output-board/24308.html

or perhaps (not sure) this: http://audiopraise.com/vanity93/overview.php

mterbekke · Feb 25, 2012

weiss2496 said:
Higher sampling rates do not help with time resolution. Wordlength (i.e. SNR) is important for time resolution.

Daniel

Daniel, could you explain your statement please? I could follow what you`re saying if you meant that e.g. jitter figures don`t change that much. But I assume what you meant to say is that the resolution of high frequencies doesn`t get better if sampling rate goes up. I don`t follow that at all.

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