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Thread: Weiss Saracon

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    WBF Technical Expert (Pro Audio Production)/Member Sponsor Bruce B's Avatar
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    Weiss Saracon

    Weiss Saracon is a software program for sample rate conversion. The program handles every known sample rate all the way to 384kHz in PCM and DSD128fs. What we found out over the weekend was an eye-opener.

    When converting DSD->PCM, Saracon puts a very steep filter starting around 22k and dropping over 50dB IN ONE OCTAVE. By the time it gets to 40k, there is NOTHING! You have no option for different filter settings like other programs.

    This means that when converting DSD files to PCM in Saracon, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ANYTHING GREATER THAN 24/96!

    Below are 2 files at 88.2 and 176.4 THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!
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    Bruce A. Brown
    Puget Sound Studios
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    WBF Technical Expert (Pro Audio Production)/Member Sponsor Bruce B's Avatar
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    Here are the same 2 files using a different program.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Bruce A. Brown
    Puget Sound Studios
    Stereomojo reviewer
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    Even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while!

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    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor garylkoh's Avatar
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    Which program sounds better though?
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    WBF Technical Expert (Pro Audio Production)/Member Sponsor Bruce B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garylkoh View Post
    Which program sounds better though?
    The custom filters we use as well as the Pyramix Lin/Min phase filters and the SBM in Sonoma.
    Bruce A. Brown
    Puget Sound Studios
    Stereomojo reviewer
    Seattle, WA


    Even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while!

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    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor garylkoh's Avatar
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    I guess that the question I really wanted to ask was - DSD -> PCM isn't transparent?

    I wonder how much music was originally recorded in DSD and converted to PCM for release (either as redbook, DVD-A, or high-rez downloads) and we are hearing the conversion.....
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    WBF Founding Member and Super Moderator RBFC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garylkoh View Post
    I guess that the question I really wanted to ask was - DSD -> PCM isn't transparent?

    I wonder how much music was originally recorded in DSD and converted to PCM for release (either as redbook, DVD-A, or high-rez downloads) and we are hearing the conversion.....
    This question mirrors my inquiry into the Korg Audiogate software for DSD playback. With an intermediate conversion stage, I don't see how it can be as transparent as a direct DSD>analog conversion.

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    WBF Technical Expert (Pro Audio Production)/Member Sponsor Bruce B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garylkoh View Post
    I guess that the question I really wanted to ask was - DSD -> PCM isn't transparent?

    I wonder how much music was originally recorded in DSD and converted to PCM for release (either as redbook, DVD-A, or high-rez downloads) and we are hearing the conversion.....
    The conversion from DSD to PCM is transparent using the correct methods, sample rates and bit depths.

    The problem is now everyone is archiving tape/vinyl in DSD. If they are using Saracon to make hi-rez PCM files, they're not gaining anything.
    Bruce A. Brown
    Puget Sound Studios
    Stereomojo reviewer
    Seattle, WA


    Even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while!

  8. #8
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    Weiss Saracon

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce B View Post
    Here are the same 2 files using a different program.
    There are various "philosophies" when designing a sampling rate converter. Our Saracon makes sure that there is no aliasing occurring and also that the very high level of RF noise present in a DSD signal is not present in the PCM signal. One has to be aware that the noise floor in a DSD signal is heavily shaped, which means that the noise energy above about 22 kHz rises steeply. While audio signals above 22kHz probably are fairly weak... i.e. mostly swamped by noise.

    The "different program" mentioned above obviously allows for aliasing.

    Daniel

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    Site Founder And Administrator Steve Williams's Avatar
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    Welcome to WBF Daniel
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    Hmmm... Interesting, but I would appreciate less OOB (out-of-band) energy; saves my tweeters and I can't hear it (I know there are all sorts of arguments on the audibility of ultrasonics). Not too mention (so I shall ) less risk of exciting an unstable amplifier into ringing (or worse). All in life, and in filters, is a compromise...

    I still get tripped up by "hi-res" = higher resolution and higher sampling rate; I am used to those being independent (or rather inversely dependent, as it is harder to achieve higher resolution at higher sampling rates, but as specifications they are independent). I understand folk consider higher sampling rates as providing higher time resolution, just not the way I was weaned.

    Bruce, are there any negative audible effects from the Saracon filters? Or, any benefit from those programs that do not filter the ultrasonics?

    Curious (as always) - Don
    Don Herman
    "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

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