Looking for a 5th Grader's Basic Understanding of "jitter"

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
I understand the basic concept of how jitter gets introduced reading from a CD but I don't understand how it can sneak back into the data down stream once it is "fixed".

For example, let's assume we have the perfect CD system and/or server and it can get jitter to ZERO as it is prepared to leave on a digital output.

And let's assume that before it goes directly to a DAC, that it is sent to a surround processor or room correction system.

What in the process of sending the data down a cable or being handled by the downstream device causes jitter to be re-introduced?

Remember, FIFTH GRADER (and only a C- student!)
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Let me do this in two parts. First part is targeted at a first grader :).

Imagine you have a two gear system like below:



Assume the top gear is perfect in every regard. Its teeth are all identical, its bearing perfect and the circumference, a perfect circle. And it rotates with zero variations in speed.

Now imagine the second gear being what we can build in real life. Its teeth have slight imperfections, it is a bit out of round, its bearing has variable friction so it slows and speeds up ever so slightly.

If I then start to rotate the first gear, the second will also rotate with it. But even though the first gear matches the idealized gear, the rotation as seen by the second gear has variations in it.

By the same token, the first gear can be your jitter free source but if it is not able to communicate its speed with zero fidelity loss, the final outcome is less than ideal.

In digital audio, the DAC must recreate the clock frequency that was used to digitize the samples. Unfortunately consumer audio systems are broken and rely on the source (the first gear) to tell it how to do that and that process, is not precise and subject to corruption.
 

fishnchips

Banned
May 8, 2011
97
0
0
I understand the basic concept of how jitter gets introduced reading from a CD
Hint: you do not and it does not. Data on CD is scrambled several times over and is out of order too. Once read, it has to be descrambled, reassembled in its proper order and error corrected. So far, the notion of jitter does not even exist. You can obtain your data every which way, even by waiting for hours next to a screeching 14400 modem and, once your data has arrived and found whole, say a week later, that's it. Job done properly. Jitter does not arise until the moment when your digital data has to become analog, or vice versa (if you are recording live music)

The trouble begins when your data approaches the D-to-A convertor. Each digital data byte has to be turned into an analog voltage at a precise time, and this needs a clock. The whole data stream, clock and all, is made of wild up-and-down swings. These are supposed to be square in form, so that the next chip in line can tell precisely if it receives a one or a zero, and precisely when it does so. It will then use these numbers (because this' is what they are) to create analog voltages that serve as "anchor points" for the full analog waveform to be created. It's like trying to trace a route on a map with a piece of string. You stick pins or needles along the way and then thread the string along them. The better placed the pins, the better your tracing of the route.

The problem is that very fast, wild square swings get squished along the way, because the cable they travel in smooths them out. Now you don't have a sharp, quick zero-to-one or one-to-zero square anymore, you have a slope, and the next chip has to somehow decide when a zero has arrived or when a one has arrived as it follows the slopes. It's not cut-and-dried anymore, as it is with the squares. It's a judgement call, so to speak. This judgement call is jitter, and it shifts the anchor points of the signal back and forth in time. Your string does not follow the map route as well as you'd like it to.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Hint: you do not and it does not. .

What am I missing? If jitter does NOT get introduced when reading from a CD (which is what you are saying), why is the transport so critical in the CD playing business? Why do most music servers sound as good or better than the very best CD transports according to virtually all reviewers and my own personal experience when played through the identical DAC. I was under the impression that the reason the servers do sound better that on a server, since not playing in real time, it can use software like dbPoweramp to read the disc as often as necessary to make sure it gets all of the bits correct. Which is what PS Audio is trying to do with their Perfect Wave Transport that buffers the CD input?

As I said, I'm trying to get a basic understanding of jitter. Amirm's example helps a bit.
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
It depends how you look at the CD Transport; the mech-servo that handles the reading and error control, or as transmitting data to a DAC, in reality both aspects are critical and much work is still done relating to servo code in the CD mechanism, and technically jitter is applicable to both (the emphasise is technically and this means for some it will be debatable to its extent or scope).

One area servers are acknowledged having an advantage is the read aspect of the data, in that a ripped track can be read many times to average out errors and even compared to an online database to validate the ripped file, where a traditional CD player-transport must read and importantly transfer the data at a set rate that has some limitations.
In the traditional CD player there are benefits in having the more expensive mechanisms compared to cheaper units, which is where TEAC VRDS has made its name along with the Philips Pro2 units.
But then this can be overcome to some extent these days with buffering (traditional way to deal with jitter) or using cheaper ROM drives that are more known in the pc world (as these can read multiple times in one cycle compared to traditional CD drives).

TBH from measurements I have seen done the very best CD players-Transports-music servers-etc all have comparable jitter when it comes to actual data (periodic-correlated), however where we do see potential problems is h anomolies caused by design-components that can create unusual frequency sidebands or a broadening of the signal.
Have you checked Don's articles on this subject?
I appreciate they go into much deeper detail.
If after a 1st step that explains this in steps and mentions periodic-correlated-uncorrelated, the following link could be really useful, although some may want to debate all that he says, overall though it is pretty good.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm
And a few others:
http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/
http://www.nanophon.com/audio/jitter92.pdf

But also take a look at the detail and very good posts of Don :)
Sorry to rush this but need to go.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Orb
 
Last edited:

fishnchips

Banned
May 8, 2011
97
0
0
What am I missing? If jitter does NOT get introduced when reading from a CD (which is what you are saying), why is the transport so critical in the CD playing business?
Hey, that's not a 5th grade question! The answer, however, is in your own writings. Computers are far more powerful than "transports". They can even look into the future, so to speak, by storing data and then releasing it later once they have checked it. In addition, some DACs are better than others in sorting out the data they are fed. The better a DAC is, the more insensitive to "transport quality".
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
If jitter does NOT get introduced when reading from a CD (which is what you are saying), why is the transport so critical in the CD playing business?

Excellent question, and at least a very large part of the answer is that esoteric CD players look like audiophile equipment and the optical disc transport in your laptop does not. Yet the optical disc transport in your laptop is perfectly capable of reading the data as many times as it takes the error correction software to get a perfect mirror of the data from the optical disk on your hard drive (or into memory), at which point the cd transport is utterly irrelevant.

The answer, I fear, is that we expect this...



to sound much better than this...



...and so it does.

Tim
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
Focusing on the read-error aspect:
The reality for PC Rom drives is between both views I feel, especially if you look at real world experiences from developers such as that with DBpoweramp, who has shown quite clearly that not all PC ROM drives are equal with the TEAC version coming out consistently top in their testing.
The key is how to compare multiple reads and monitor actual hardware read related errors, one reason why having an online database checksum as a validation is very useful for the final rip.
But then it could be argued going to this length is over the top, and is it really audible, tricky to say as the errors may not be consistent.
It would be interesting to see how this compares to the Pro2 or VRDS mechanisms; specifically comparing to a transport with ROM drive, and server with ripped file from a cheap non-Teac ROM drive.
Again though would be a nightmare to isolate as all these rely upon their own transmission components and firmware (such as ethernet or s/pdif) to a DAC
Cheers
Orb
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
What prompted my question was an experience I had this past weekend. We did a blind comparison of a music server (The Music Vault Diamond), the dCS Scarlatti Stack and the dCS Paganni Stack as well as my current Qsonix Server (we used Q110 and not the most updated one with the Wadia digital stuff).

The Qsonix and the two dCS systems sounded very, very much alike (we played the Qsonix through the dCS DACS and the Music Vault was also played through the dCS DAC ).

The Music Vault was easily much, much better (much more three dimensional, better separation of voices and instruments, etc) and I did not know what I was listening to. No squinting or long A/B sessions to pick it out. Every time.

While I was given many explanations from the Music Vault company, it was clear that close to zero jitter leaving the player was what contributed most to what I was hearing (part of which occurred because of the way the disc was checked upon loading).

Given the above, I am trying to understand what might happen to this wonderful sound if I stick a TacT room correction system between the server and the DAC assuming the DAC can deal with some level of jitter? (The TacT has no clock input).

I will look at Don's posting later but when I originally glanced at it, 5th grade level did not jump out a me, but I will try again.
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
You did look at the top two links I provided Audioguy?
As I said they are worth it.
Thanks
Orb
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
OK, there is part 2:

Key principals here:

1. The source is the master. It determines how fast or slow the samples are to be converted to analog in the DAC. The sampling rates you hear such as 44.1Khz are nominal values. They are NEVER used to determine the rate by the DAC! The DAC must play the samples at the rate that is coming to it from the source. It cannot substitute its own clock and call it done.

2. The way the DAC determines the rate is to look at the pulses carrying the data on its digital input. By counting how many are arriving per second, it can determine the speed with which it must play the content. If it sees 44,099 samples/sec, that is the rate, not 44,100. Spec allows +-5% variation from nominal sampling rate by the way.

3. The way the pulses are counted is to look at when they cross the 0 voltage point. Here is a sample measurement of S/PDIF by someone random on the Internet:



As you see the waveform itself is pretty corrupted and doesn't look anything like an idealized square wave. By using the edges as they cross zero, we don't worry as much about all that nasties on top of the waveform and also what level those are.

4. If you look carefully, you see the edges are not perfect either. The slope of the waveform can change based on cable and end-point characteristics, causing that line to be less or more vertical. If so, then the time measurement we make will be inaccurate. This is called "cable induced jitter." Our measurements started perfect at the source but by the time it traveled on the wire, it has gotten corrupted. Unfortunately, the corruption can actually be data dependent, making its distortion highly unpredictable.

5. Now we get to the receiver. The receiver makes the above measurement but also implements a flywheel effect like you would have in the heavy platter of a turntable. The flywheel speed can be adjusted up and down over time but it resists small changes. The same idea applied here means that if the variations or occurring very quickly, the player clock ignores them and keeps going at the rate it was. The fancy term for this is a Phased Locked Loop or PLL for short.

6. To however be sensitive to the receiver genuinely wanting the target to slow down or speed up (e.g. in the above example were it is one sample slower than nominal value), the PLL cannot throw out all variations. It must allow some through. There is also another problem it can run into if it filters too much in that it may take it a long time to lock onto incoming data rate. This is why on some DACs, you select the input and nothing plays for a second or two or even longer. So the design of the PLL becomes challenging in that you have conflicting requirements of being able to adapt quickly to speed changes yet not allowing noise and jitter induced up stream to get into your DAC. This is why even the most expensive DACs can still benefit from clean upstream digital signal.

7. Our problem becomes complex because impact of jitter goes up rapidly as you increase the bit depth and frequency. 16 bits doesn't sound like a big number but it is. It says that the system represents values that 1/65,000 apart in amplitude. At 20,000 Hz, for simplified jitter spectrum (a sinewave), this translates to 0.5 billionth of a second in timing accuracy for your clock! Anything higher and it will generate distortion that is higher than the lowest step your digital system can represent.

8. Note that just because you hear differences in systems, it doesn't mean it is all related to jitter up stream. The local clock in the DAC can also get disturbed by many other factors such as RF, power supply variations, activities in the rest of the device from DSPs to front panel, displays. So you also have local jitter to add to the equation. In addition, you electrical interference from upstream device that shares the ground with the DAC. Again, remember how delicate these signals are even at 16 bits.

Let me pause here and see if this is easy to digest so far.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
The source is the master.

What's the source? The data on the hard drive or the CD? The data in memory? Before or after error correction? Do CD transports not work like HD systems? Do they not read the data into memory and error correct before sending it on to the DAC? Do they "play" the data into the DAC in real time?

If so, boy am I glad I don't have one.


Tim
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
What's the source?
The thing at the source of the S/PDIF cable.

The data on the hard drive or the CD? The data in memory? Before or after error correction? Do CD transports not work like HD systems? Do they not read the data into memory and error correct before sending it on to the DAC? Do they "play" the data into the DAC in real time?
I am treating the entire source as a black box connected to S/PDIF. Audioguy asked to assume that box is perfect so I did not get into what could go wrong there.

Answering a bit, none of this discussion is about errors. If you have errors, you have additional problems on top of what we are talking about.

The distinction with most (but not all) CD players is that they generate their S/PDIF clcok from the optical disc clock. So they have one more gear in the transmission to go by the analogy I used. Some companies like Meridian use the PC approach of treated the CD as "data" and hence, don't have this additional source of jitter.

Expanding, by treating the CD information as data rather a real-time stream of samples to play, we eliminate that timing variation temporarily. At some point, we then have to play that information and a clock is generated *in the source*. That clock on a typical PC can be awful as there is little attention put on how clean or stable it is. So the mere fact of using a PC as a source gives you nothing.

The benefit of the PC is that it is an open architecture and we can do things with it that we cannot with a CD transport. We can for example use a USB bus in asynchronous mode and make an intermediate adapter (USB to S/PDIF bridge) the master. Such an adapter can also live inside the DAC, completely eliminating any cable issues. None of this is possible with a normal CD transport so heroic efforts are required there to get us a clean signal at the end of the cable and in the DAC.

BTW, existence of memory in either CD transport or DAC means very little as far as eliminating jitter. The memory allows for speed differences at either end but it cannot eliminate jitter because a connection exists around it between the two clocks and jitter gets through that way. If you have a horrible S/PDIF clock on your PC, you will have high jitter even if your PC buffers an entire song, and your DAC also does the same!
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Amirm: thanks so much for taking the time to provide these explanations. I had no idea that there were so many places where jitter could jump into the equation. It's a wonder that CD's sound as good as some do!!

The slope of the waveform can change based on cable and end-point characteristics, causing that line to be less or more vertical. If so, then the time measurement we make will be inaccurate. This is called "cable induced jitter."

Is there some type (SPDIF, XLR, etc) and/or brand of cable that does a better job than others of keeping our "perfect" data once onto the cable "almost perfect" and creating less "cable induced jitter"?
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Is there some type (SPDIF, XLR, etc) and/or brand of cable that does a better job than others of keeping our "perfect" data once onto the cable "almost perfect" and creating less "cable induced jitter"?
I don't have a specific recommendation other to read the thread we had on cable length to remove chances of reflections. Recommendation is 1.5m. See: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...al-Interconnects&p=36176&viewfull=1#post36176

To me, the best solution is to use a USB to S/PDIF bridge and direct connect that to the DAC. Then the upstream cable and source don't matter.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
Excellent question, and at least a very large part of the answer is that esoteric CD players look like audiophile equipment and the optical disc transport in your laptop does not. Yet the optical disc transport in your laptop is perfectly capable of reading the data as many times as it takes the error correction software to get a perfect mirror of the data from the optical disk on your hard drive (or into memory), at which point the cd transport is utterly irrelevant.

The answer, I fear, is that we expect this...



to sound much better than this...



...and so it does.

Tim

I hosted this beautiful player for a week, and it sounded more detailed and precise than any other CD player I have heard. Everything seemed more focused in space. I would love to know why. The manufacturer only refers to some special mechanical characteristics and having many separate full power supplies.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
I hosted this beautiful player for a week, and it sounded more detailed and precise than any other CD player I have heard. Everything seemed more focused in space. I would love to know why. The manufacturer only refers to some special mechanical characteristics and having many separate full power supplies.

And of course the "many separate power supplies" are potential sources of noise. And if it does not, as the Meridians evidently do, play out of memory instead of playing the data from the disk in real time, the "mechanics" are an entire extra stage out of which to develop jitter. No matter how special those mechanics, no matter how low the jitter might be, it is still additive.

Audiophiledom is very confusing.

Tim
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing