I thought "manipulation" was the recording engineer's Raison d'être. So much for the "absolute sound".
Rudy Van Gelder - All Time Great or "Master Manipulator"?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Manipulation is just a means to and for an end, the end being the documentation of a specific perspective and not just an event. How much of that perspective was RVGs and how much was collaborative with his artists remains somewhat a mystery. Whatever the case may be, creatives are hired for their vision. Asking whether someone else could have recorded Bag's Groove better is a lot like asking if someone could have directed The Godfather better. It's possible but we will never, ever know. 
Manipulation is just a means to and for an end, the end being the documentation of a specific perspective and not just an event. How much of that perspective was RVGs and how much was collaborative with his artists remains somewhat a mystery. Whatever the case may be, creatives are hired for their vision. Asking whether someone else could have recorded Bag's Groove better is a lot like asking if someone could have directed The Godfather better. It's possible but we will never, ever know.
Jack, good points. I imagine, however, there have been some jazz bands recorded by RGV and other guys to do a compare and contrast. We just need to find a hard core jazz junkie to know the "trivia".
I'm guessing it won't be easy to compare Unlike say, classical music where everything is so structured and pinned on enormous amounts of individual and collective discipline, Jazz is the epitome of artists being "in the moment". Aside from the sonics, I believe the REs and producers are a very big part of creating the atmosphere as well as the direction for the artists. What I would really like to see is a film of an ongoing studio session with RGV if one even exists. I think we could all learn a lot about the creative dynamics if we did.
Unlike say, classical music where everything is so structured and pinned on enormous amounts of individual and collective discipline, Jazz is the epitome of artists being "in the moment". Aside from the sonics, I believe the REs and producers are a very big part of creating the atmosphere as well as the direction for the artists. What I would really like to see is a film of an ongoing studio session with RGV if one even exists. I think we could all learn a lot about the creative dynamics if we did. 
It will be hard to put a finger on a sound for Van Gelder, because his career spans a period in which there was a revolution in recording technology, ranging from very FR and dynamically limited mono recordings to very fine stereo tape recordings that hold up to this day. But if you want a really good comparison you can find it in Miles Davis. In 1959, .Miles was anxious to move to Columbia, but had to fulfill his contract with Prestige; so anxious, that he did it all at basically the same time, recording what are now marketed as "The Legendary Prestige Sessions" with Van Gelder, with the same musicians (arguably the best band he ever had), in the same period of time in which he recorded Kind of Blue at Columbia with Teo Macero and Irving Townsend.
The comparison of the two is useful, but certainly not definitive, as the Prestige Sessions were recorded live, in studio. No overdubs, lots of mic bleed, few takes. Miles was in a hurry. Kind of Blue, by contrast, was carefully, slowly recorded by the standards of the day. Still, you can hear a lot of what Van Gelder was admired for -- warmth, presence, fabulous capture of horns -- and what he was criticized for -- a somewhat recessed sound, particularly on piano, and an overuse (not my opinion, but a popular one) of reverb.
Personally I think the Prestige Sessions are wonderful. When you consider how quickly and casually they were recorded, they transcend wonderful and make it all the way to how the hell did they pull that off?!?
If you want some serious contrast in Van Gelder's work, listen to "Birth of the Cool," then the "Prestige Sessions," then Cannonball's "Somethin' Else" or Coltrane's "A Love Supreme." Really, I don't know where the controversy is. To me, Van Glder was a giant who captured many of the best recordings of his generation.
Tim
I think one can easily hear a differences in sound among RVG's recordings. Just compare what he did for Blue Note, Impulse (my favorite) and Verve (my least favorite). And it's not a big secret. According to Steve Hoffman who has remastered many of RVGs Blue Note and Impulse recordings for Analogue Productions and Music Matters Jazz, "The BN's are recorded hotter on the tape which can add a sort of "overload" sound to everything. The Impulse stuff was recorded at normal level."
I can't argue with any of that. His recordings sound different from record to record, not just label to label. And I sure can't disagree with Steve. He's seen the masters on the machine, read the VU meters. If anyone knows what's hot and what's not, he would be on the list. I can only say that if the Blue Note stuff is "hot," it doesn't all suffer for it. "Somethin' Else" sounds great!
Rim
Similar threads
Members online
- Don Reid
- Imperial
- Foxbat
- drrsutliff
- hb22
- Capybara
- Oracle1974
- MarkusBarkus
- jhulton
- the sound of Tao
- an.vamv
- Mamon
- Elliot G.
- bozebuttons
- ecwl
- Lucas Domansky LDMS
- jasbirnandra
- JohnAC
- rsorren1
- christensenleif@msn.com
- Gregadd
- vintage_tube
- tsaett
- MPW
- Maril555
- Multiway
- ozzzy
- Król_Artur
- bonzo75
- Basile: Locrian Audio
- analogsa
- Kippyy
- pcosta
- chuck
- luthcol
- Raidersfan
- Atmasphere
- Dogberry
- nirodha
- Wavetouch
- Treehaus Audiolab
- andromedaaudio
- M27HF
- cjfrbw
- viola
- thekong
- Mike Lavigne
- Bonesy Jonesy
- takacs75
- Emilzebira
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |