Rolling in tubes, who's doing it and if not, why not?

DaveyF

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Rolling in tubes.

It's that time again, I'm going to roll more tubes into the line section of my CAT preamplifier.
Thinking of going with Mullards and Genalex's:cool:
IMHO, rolling tubes is a good way to,in many instances, realize a very nice improvement in your tube gear. With my CAT, it has allowed me to hear much deeper into the soundstage and has allowed the top end to really bloom... Much better reproduction of the bite of a brass instrument and a woodwind's air!
Who else here has rolled in tubes or is contemplating doing so?If not, why not?:confused:
 
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jadis

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Ever since I got my JPL pre amp in the early 90s and the owner changed the tubes from the stock EI to Telefunkens, I became a tube roller. Another friend in the hobby lent me some tubes thereafter, an I was addicted to tube rolling. Changing a lone phone tube, stock Sovtek 6922 to a Telefunken E88CC gave me the first glimpse of what a simple tube roll could do as far as soundstage is concerned. Deeper, wider and very 3 dimensional spacing. I've found my spice, so to speak, in the Mullard tubes. Right now my line stage and phone stage are all equipped by Mullard tubes, the olden golden.
 

JackD201

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I'm a serial tube roller. I was influenced by Jadis! Hahahaha! Have the new goodies arrived yet Phil?
 

jadis

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I'm a serial tube roller. I was influenced by Jadis! Hahahaha! Have the new goodies arrived yet Phil?

Hehe, Jack. We all needed to be influenced by one tube roller or the other. Haha.

Our main man wrote last week that he expects his stash to be tested and completed in a couple of weeks. Then another few weeks for the travel time. :)
 

RogerD

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Tube rolling is fantastic. I have a set of Mullards waitng to go into my Ampex 350's when I get them back. My Monarchy tube DAC has a pair of Amperex tubes and the soundstage couldn't be happier.
 

microstrip

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Tube rolling can change the sound of a system in an effective way, but sometimes in a very negative way. One day I want listening to a friend system, and it sounded horrible and grainy. I have listened to it many times, so I immediately asked - what is the problem? The only problem was some expensive 12AX7 Telefunken that he bought from eBay and were just relabeled tubes. Once the Mullards came to the system everything become smooth again.

I have three sets of 12AT7 for my VTLs input position - Mullard, Telefunken and Siemens. The differences are easily noticed.
 

MylesBAstor

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1. Yes, tube rolling can improve as well as degrade the sound of a component.
2. Tube rolling being hit or miss, can get expensive.
3. Most NOS tubes are better than what's being made today.
4. Few NOS tubes are really NOS.
5. There are counterfeit tubes floating around and uncrupulous individuals. Even some of the more established tube dealers have gotten burned at one time or another.
6. Each tube manufacturer's tubes have a "house" sound so can voice the sound of a component.
7. One doesn't know how long a tube (s) will last since really don't know really in most cases, know the number of hours on the tubes. Have had friends buy Teles that sound great but have zip, yes nada, dynamics. These tubes often are at the end of their lifespan and probably were pulls.
8. I don't buy the 10,000 hrs thing; I doubt that has much to do with how long the tube sounds good as much as it does with how long the tube will function in a piece of say, government or hospital or testing equipment.

Now here's a question: do tube tester measurements mean anything? (of course, there's the issue of real operating voltages.) Is an Amplitrex the only way to go? What about a Textronix curve tracer, of which they made about 5000? What about the Maximatcher http://www.maximatcher.com/http://, something I've had my eyes on for a while (I use the George Kaye for small signal tubes.) Or just because the readout says it's new, is it really new or have a long lifespan ahead of it?
 

DaveyF

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1. Yes, tube rolling can improve as well as degrade the sound of a component.
2. Tube rolling being hit or miss, can get expensive.
3. Most NOS tubes are better than what's being made today.
4. Few NOS tubes are really NOS.
5. There are counterfeit tubes floating around and uncrupulous individuals. Even some of the more established tube dealers have gotten burned at one time or another.
6. Each tube manufacturer's tubes have a "house" sound so can voice the sound of a component.
7. One doesn't know how long a tube (s) will last since really don't know really in most cases, know the number of hours on the tubes. Have had friends buy Teles that sound great but have zip, yes nada, dynamics. These tubes often are at the end of their lifespan and probably were pulls.
8. I don't buy the 10,000 hrs thing; I doubt that has much to do with how long the tube sounds good as much as it does with how long the tube will function in a piece of say, government or hospital or testing equipment.

Now here's a question: do tube tester measurements mean anything? (of course, there's the issue of real operating voltages.) Is an Amplitrex the only way to go? What about a Textronix curve tracer, of which they made about 5000? What about the Maximatcher http://www.maximatcher.com/http://, something I've had my eyes on for a while (I use the George Kaye for small signal tubes.) Or just because the readout says it's new, is it really new or have a long lifespan ahead of it?


All good points Myles:D
As to tube life, I don't think one can really expect any specific length of life for any particular tube. By life, i mean that the tube sounds good and hasn't obviously come to the end ( catastrophic failure or additional noise). However, the life of any component, ss or tube, is an unknown, so as they say..."that's life":rolleyes:
I have had tubes in an old Telefunken radio that i used to own that were at least 50 years old, they still sounded perfectly acceptable in that application:D I have also installed some new Chinese tubes into a Melos amp that I also used to own, that imploded within sixty seconds:mad:
Your point about Buying from a more reputable dealer and IMO having an open mind to actually 'roll' is well taken.
 

jcmusic

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I just started rolling some tubes in my pre, I haven't done that in four years are so!!! My buddy sent me some really nice tubes to try and that's the only reason I am doing it!!!

Jay
 

JackD201

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Can he be our buddy too? ;)
 

jadis

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On the subject of NOS, there seems to be some confusion regarding the meaning of NOS. While it means NEW OLD STOCK literally, it can now mean that it really IS new old stock, never used at all nor tested OR, it just tests like a new old stock tube when done in a tube tester. Ebay sellers have a tendency to post their tubes as NOS and then giving out readings on their tube testers. There are various kinds of tube testers, as Myles noted, and even WAYS of testing tube for their 'life span'. So buyer beware. Another tag is NIB, New In Box. Which to me simple means the seller is saying the tube is new and that he never even tested it. You just have to trust him for his word. And I agree with a few who said it's best to buy tubes from a proven and reputed seller.
 
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MylesBAstor

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On the subject of NOS, there seems to be some confusion regarding the meaning of NOS. While it means NEW OLD STOCK literally, it can now mean that it really IS new old stock, never used at all nor tested OR, it just tests like a new old stock tube when done in a tube tester. Ebay sellers have a tendency to post their tubes as NOS and then giving out readings on their tube testers. There are various kinds of tube testers, as Myles noted, and even WAYS of testing tube for their 'life span'. So buyer beware. Another tag is NIB, New In Box. Which to me simple means the seller is saying the tube is new and that he never even tested it. You just have to trust him for his word. And I agree with a few who said it's best to buy tubes from a proven and reputed seller.

About the only way can trust its new is if the box is sealed :) Did find a pair of Tele E188CC/7308s but haven't tried them in my preamp yet. I'll get around to it someday :)
 

jadis

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About the only way can trust its new is if the box is sealed :) Did find a pair of Tele E188CC/7308s but haven't tried them in my preamp yet. I'll get around to it someday :)

That's right, Myles. But, if I were to buy a sealed tube, like a E188CC Tele, and it probably would cost much more more than an opened and well tested one, my only worry if that it might be mishandled sometime along those decades of its manufacture, and find a crack in the glass once opened. Of course, there will be no warranties on buying a sealed tube. I had tried the Tele E188CC before, and it's really good, very close in performance to the Tele CCa's.
 

cjfrbw

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I think it is more productive to experiment with a raft of "middle tier" tubes than buy the fashionista expensive ones.

I bought a bunch of philips green label 6dj8's once, found there was considerable manufacturing variance with ostensibly same tubes, some sounded great, some sounded wobbly and weird. The best way to get good sounding tubes is to get a bunch (not necessarily expensive or coveted), test them for electrical parameters, then just plug them in listening with headphones until you get good sounding sets, then just sell the rest.

Many neglected second tier tubes, like GE five stars, can sound better than variants of telefunken and siemens. I have had "expensive" NOS triple mica siemens blow up faster than old, tired tubes.

Of course, the usual caveats about "synergy" (duck, objectivists) etc. apply
 

JackD201

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Moods are moods. I roll to tailor the sound. Like anything else in life, I think we all like some variety. In our vacation condo I have a simple set up consisting of Ambience 1200 loudspeakers, an LSA Integrated and a Popcorn Hour BD/Server. The LSA uses two 6922/6dj8s in the preamp section and the power amp section is Solid State. Before the LSA found its way there I used it on a variety of loudspeakers in my old place. VR-1s, VR-4jrs, SR Mk.3s, LSA-1s and 2s in all their iterations, the aforementioned Ambience 1200s and their big brothers the Ambience 1600 References all passed through the ever trusty beast of an integrated when undergoing mechanical and electrical burn in.

While I have my stash of exotics from some of the usual suspects namely Amperex, Mullard, Telefunken and Siemens, I've also used new production tubes from EH, Sovtek and JJ Tesla. For example, when it comes to gut wrenching rock, I invariably turn to the JJs. They just bring the grunt and the intensity that I find rock requires. Looking at new production tubes, I believe it's a pretty small investment in both money and effort. I typically leave the top plate off. Switching between tubes takes 3 minutes max including power down and soft start.

For my power amps Lamm Hybrids I roll between the stock tubes, mullard CV2492s and TFK red tips. The Lamm tube Amps using 12ax7s at the input position, stock and again TFKs. I've yet to try rolling the 12bh7s and for power tubes I stick to Lamm sourced 6c33cs. 6c33s I've bought elsewhere have been total crap shoots. The Valvet Soulshine using stock JJ 12ax7s and 12at7s have yet to be rolled and neither has my VK-31 SE Superpack which I've had longest since I never got a chance to acquire 6H30 DRs and have been using what Viktor and company supplied without a hitch.

All in all, it's a fun thing to do simply because we can. Yes there are many pitfalls and us buyers have to take responsibility for watching our own backs but the same is true for everything else. We still have to look at expiration dates on milk cartons right? :)
 

DaveyF

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Jack, would you agree that in most instances rolled in tubes are better sounding than the manufacturer's own tube choice?
When I had a conversation with Ken Stevens about this a few months back, he was very sure that the tubes that his Co. picks for his gear are the best option available. I disagreed with him, but he was having none of it.:(
My CAT has benefitted greatly by the tubes I have rolled in so far, and i suspect that when i replace the stock line level tubes, I will see a benefit as well. Like you said it is a fun thing to do, and in my experience a very beneficial exercise as well:D
 

jadis

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Jack, would you agree that in most instances rolled in tubes are better sounding than the manufacturer's own tube choice?
When I had a conversation with Ken Stevens about this a few months back, he was very sure that the tubes that his Co. picks for his gear are the best option available. I disagreed with him, but he was having none of it.:(
My CAT has benefitted greatly by the tubes I have rolled in so far, and i suspect that when i replace the stock line level tubes, I will see a benefit as well. Like you said it is a fun thing to do, and in my experience a very beneficial exercise as well:D

That is not the first time I heard manufacturers dissuate users from changing the stock tubes. Friends with gears from CJ and Aestetix told me that the makers tell them there's not much positive benefits to do it. But, in my experience, over the past 10 years, NOS premium tubes' prices have continued to shoot up, in incredible fashion too. This to me shows their demand proves improvements in using them. And, my own take on the manufacturers' insistence on their tubes - I believe they voice their units on the stock tubes, and secondly, they wouldn't want users to run to them to source the NOS tubes if they initially put in NOS tubes in them - the supply just isn't enough for their production anyway.
 

MylesBAstor

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That is not the first time I heard manufacturers dissuate users from changing the stock tubes. Friends with gears from CJ and Aestetix told me that the makers tell them there's not much positive benefits to do it. But, in my experience, over the past 10 years, NOS premium tubes' prices have continued to shoot up, in incredible fashion too. This to me shows their demand proves improvements in using them. And, my own take on the manufacturers' insistence on their tubes - I believe they voice their units on the stock tubes, and secondly, they wouldn't want users to run to them to source the NOS tubes if they initially put in NOS tubes in them - the supply just isn't enough for their production anyway.

Another consideration is if those rolled in tubes fail and blow up your gear (FYI, I've had NOS small signal tubes literally crack upon turn on). Not such a small consideration with some equipment.

I think the thing you are missing is that the manufacturers must choose both the best sounding "available" tube and the most reliable tube. It's scary when manufacturers tell you about tube rejection rates of 30 to 50%. (Right now, I'm not too thrilled with the 6H30-EB tubes. Have had two fail in a year.) Sometimes these rejects go back to the jobber (like with the old GE 6550s. Other times they're sold to people who resell them on audiogon, ebay, etc. The scary thing is that Richardson/GE just put the 6550s back on the shelves and resold them. So people kept selecting and selecting from the existing, discontinued eventually resulting in 90 pct junk. That's why would never buy a GE 6550 today.

Many tube manufacturers are clearly gun shy over the past bad press about the unreliability of tube gear. After all, who wants to be without their SOTA amp for a month or two?
 

jadis

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Another consideration is if those rolled in tubes fail and blow up your gear. Not such as small consideration with some equipment.


That's very true, Myles. The buyer runs that risk in tube rolling.
 

DaveyF

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Another consideration is if those rolled in tubes fail and blow up your gear (FYI, I've had NOS small signal tubes literally crack upon turn on). Not such a small consideration with some equipment.

I think the thing you are missing is that the manufacturers must choose both the best sounding "available" tube and the most reliable tube. It's scary when manufacturers tell you about tube rejection rates of 30 to 50%. (Right now, I'm not too thrilled with the 6H30-EB tubes. Have had two fail in a year.) Sometimes these rejects go back to the jobber (like with the old GE 6550s. Other times they're sold to people who resell them on audiogon, ebay, etc. The scary thing is that Richardson/GE just put the 6550s back on the shelves and resold them. So people kept selecting and selecting from the existing, discontinued eventually resulting in 90 pct junk. That's why would never buy a GE 6550 today.

Many tube manufacturers are clearly gun shy over the past bad press about the unreliability of tube gear. After all, who wants to be without their SOTA amp for a month or two?
Agree with you Myles, however, IMO, a tube catastrophe can occur with any tube upon insertion, even brand new and from a reputable dealer:(. I think that is just the risk one takes as an owner of tube gear. As I said in an earlier post, a few years back, I inserted a new quad matched set of Chinese 6550's into my Melos amp only to see flames and flash upon turn-on:mad: Luckily, I pulled the plug fast enough and the amp didn't suffer any real damage, BUT my heartbeat sure spiked:rolleyes:

OTOH, I suspect that a catastrophic failure is far more likely if you are rolling in power tubes than driver tubes :eek:
 

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