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Thread: How fast does electricity travel?

  1. #21
    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor [Technical Expert] garylkoh's Avatar
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    Frantz,

    We tried our hardest, but IMO failed to unlock the secrets based on RLC through simulations and calculations and graphs. That is why I developed a follow-up thread where we can empirically explore the cable differences through actually building examples with identical material but different LC characteristics here:

    http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...able-Dialectic

    Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone tried building these two extremes of cables and really listen and reported.
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    Gary L Koh, CEO and Chief Designer,
    Genesis Advanced Technologies

  2. #22
    Just one detail. Fancy dielectric materials and metals in cables are not an audiophile mania.
    Of course not. They are fancy dielectric materials and metals in cables.

    They are used in many applications, such as aeronautics, space research, radiation detectors and many others, because of reliability, consistency of manufacture, long term stability and capability of foreseeing any changes in electrical properties during its lifetime.
    Of course, but many audiophile cable manufacturers claim that these premium materials and their proprietary designs move more data/current faster, resulting in higher resolution/better sound. Their claims are in direct opposition to this statement:

    Surely there are no intrinsic faster/slower sound properties of electric materials.
    Regardless, I didn't say anything about audiophile mania, I only asked if it is not the dialectic materials or the metals, then what is it? A reasonable question, I think. But even if there is no difference (unprovable negative, as has been noted often here) or if a difference was undetectable even in carefully controlled listening tests repeated often enough to drive the margin for error into the deep, I would not call it audiophile mania. I would call it expectation bias, a very common, well-documented phenomenon. The only "audiophile mania" is the belief in immunity to that phenomenon.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  3. #23
    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor [Technical Expert] garylkoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Kars View Post
    John Siau of Benchmark Media tested frequency response of various cables

    Indeed there is a high roll off
    But he needed 100 ft to demontstrate the effect
    http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.c...udioCables.htm
    Thanks, Vincent.

    John Siau's test does show frequency response anomalousness. However, he had to go to extremes to show it. The biggest difference is in the cyan curve - which is a single 24awg twisted pair used as a speaker cable. That's like using a tonearm cable as a speaker cable.

    With the cable that *might* possibly be a decently correlated model for a speaker cable (25 pairs of 24awg twisted pair) even over 100ft, showed 0.76deg of phase shift and 0.4dB FR variation.

    This is why I suggested using CAT5 cables to construct speaker cables. Using different configuration of the internal 24awg strands will result in different capacitance and inductance characteristics and sound different - even at 6ft where FR and phase difference are so low as to be immaterial.
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  4. #24
    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor [Technical Expert] garylkoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    Regardless, I didn't say anything about audiophile mania, I only asked if it is not the dialectic materials or the metals, then what is it? A reasonable question, I think.
    It's a reasonable question. I do not think that it is not the dielectric materials or the metals - they are both contributing factors, but in themselves do not answer the question - is there an audible difference.

    But even if there is no difference (unprovable negative, as has been noted often here) or if a difference was undetectable even in carefully controlled listening tests repeated often enough to drive the margin for error into the deep, I would not call it audiophile mania. I would call it expectation bias, a very common, well-documented phenomenon. The only "audiophile mania" is the belief in immunity to that phenomenon.

    Tim
    It's a long weekend coming up. I'm sure that there's a Radio Shack nearby - how about let's all have a weekend of fun building speaker cables? Whee!! I'm sure our families will be thrilled with that idea
    __________________________
    Gary L Koh, CEO and Chief Designer,
    Genesis Advanced Technologies

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by garylkoh View Post
    It's a reasonable question. I do not think that it is not the dielectric materials or the metals - they are both contributing factors, but in themselves do not answer the question - is there an audible difference.



    It's a long weekend coming up. I'm sure that there's a Radio Shack nearby - how about let's all have a weekend of fun building speaker cables? Whee!! I'm sure our families will be thrilled with that idea
    Alas, I have no speaker cables in my system except for the very short ones inside my speaker cabinets. I can't join in the fun.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  6. #26
    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor [Technical Expert] garylkoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    Alas, I have no speaker cables in my system except for the very short ones inside my speaker cabinets. I can't join in the fun.

    Tim
    It's a pity that active loudspeakers/powered passives aren't more and better accepted by audiophiles. The best cable surely is no cable!
    __________________________
    Gary L Koh, CEO and Chief Designer,
    Genesis Advanced Technologies

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by garylkoh View Post
    It's a pity that active loudspeakers/powered passives aren't more and better accepted by audiophiles. The best cable surely is no cable!
    Well, it's in there, as are the interconnects between preamp and amps. They're all just very, very short.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  8. #28
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    (...) Of course, but many audiophile cable manufacturers claim that these premium materials and their proprietary designs move more data/current faster, resulting in higher resolution/better sound. (...)
    Tim
    We have agreed before that most manufacturer claims are excessive and scientifically incorrect. Why coming over their poor and foolish selling arguments in a technical discussion?

    BTW, can you write down the names of ten manufacturers that use only scientifically proved arguments in their marketing?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    We have agreed before that most manufacturer claims are excessive and scientifically incorrect. Why coming over their poor and foolish selling arguments in a technical discussion?

    BTW, can you write down the names of ten manufacturers that use only scientifically proved arguments in their marketing?
    You're right, Micro, there wasn't much point in throwing that into this thread. And yes, I'd have a lot of trouble finding audiophile manufacturers who market their products based on nothing but scientific facts. And I'd not have a moment's trouble finding several quite respected ones who lie through their teeth. That bothers me. But I'll get over it.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  10. #30
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomelex View Post
    This whole cable thing is not that complicated! (...)

    It depends on the amplitude of your signals. The following lines are taken from an old Keithley book on the use of low current meters. Please remember that 1microVolt (-120dB relative to 1 V) divided by 100000 ohms gives .01nA.



    Errors in Low Current Measurements (1)

    One of the most common causes of error when measuring low currents (<1nA) is offset current, which can come from the test setup or the measuring instrument.

    Potential Cause: Insulating Material
    Current can leak through an insulating material or over its surface. The insulating material may itself store or generate charge.

    Remedies
    A. Choose a good insulator
    Several properties are important when evaluating an insulator material:

    Volume Resistivity—Leakage of current directly through the material.
    Surface Resistivity—Leakage across the surface, a function primarily of surface contaminants.
    Water Absorption—Leakage dependent on the amount of water that has been absorbed by the insulator.
    Piezoelectric or stored charge effects— The creation of charge unbalances (and thus current flow) or voltage shift due to mechanical stress.
    Triboelectric effects—The creation of charge unbalance due to frictional effects when materials rub against each other.
    Dielectric Absorption—The tendency of an insulator to store/release charge over long periods of time. For a listing of common insulating materials and their characteristics, see the Keithley Low Level Measurements handbook, Section 2.2.2.
    Last edited by microstrip; 05-27-2011 at 03:13 AM.

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