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Thread: How fast does electricity travel?

  1. #11
    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor [Technical Expert] garylkoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomelex View Post
    To amplify, phase shift due to speed EM fields move along conductor are not something we hear, we do hear the phase shift effects at different audio frequencies due to inductance, capacitance, etc, just like in an audio circuit with a real capacitor or inductor...like a bass/treble tone control uses...and the effects of these things on the amplifier via feedback and output resistance of amp blah etc blah..

    Tom
    I agree with you that we do hear the phase shift effects, and also cable store/release of energy. However, it was shown by simulations done by Amir that the capacitance/inductance effects on a cable are extremely low. It does not mean that they are not audible - just that the measurements suggest that they should not be audible.
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  2. #12
    [WBF Founding Member] Addicted to Best! JackD201's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomelex View Post
    Actually, the EM fields travel both ways in AC....the electrons move ever slightly toward ground direction then ever so slightly away from ground direction....he leans one way then the other so to speak...so Fred is bi-sexual? Frederica?

    Tom
    Hahahahahahaha! This forum is on a roll today!

  3. #13
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    John Siau of Benchmark Media tested frequency response of various cables


    Indeed there is a high roll off
    But he needed 100 ft to demontstrate the effect
    http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.c...udioCables.htm

  4. #14
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    It is known that the classical parameters of cables (R, L and C) can not explain the sound of cables.
    Unless we have a good accepted theory for the audibility and perceived effects of very small signals in audio we will never be able to explain it.

    IMHO part of the cable "sound properties" are due to the electromechanical properties of dielectrics and conductors, that modulate the electrical signal, enhancing some aspects of the sound, and make the sound feel more "real". Otherwise how can we admit that the sound of the cable depends on cable length and some times we prefer to have a 4m speaker cable than no cable?

    In a interview some 20 years ago Dr. Van den Hul, a well know dutch cable manufacturer, referred that he had developed special instruments able to resolve differences at the -140 dB level for his cable research.

  5. #15
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    It is known that the classical parameters of cables (R, L and C) can not explain the sound of cables.
    Unless we have a good accepted theory for the audibility and perceived effects of very small signals in audio we will never be able to explain it.

    IMHO part of the cable "sound properties" are due to the electromechanical properties of dielectrics and conductors, that modulate the electrical signal, enhancing some aspects of the sound, and make the sound feel more "real". Otherwise how can we admit that the sound of the cable depends on cable length and some times we prefer to have a 4m speaker cable than no cable?

    In a interview some 20 years ago Dr. Van den Hul, a well know dutch cable manufacturer, referred that he had developed special instruments able to resolve differences at the -140 dB level for his cable research.
    LCR do explain a lot of things .. Yet they can't explain Audio cables ?????? In application much more critical and I would dare say demanding , video for one ... L,C and R routinely explain a lot ..
    One must first convince oneself of differences and then push science aside .. Only in High End Audio and that with the knowledge of said cable in the system...
    Frantz
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  6. #16
    VIP/Donor [WBF Founding Member] ack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    It is known that the classical parameters of cables (R, L and C) can not explain the sound of cables.
    Sure it can - and very easily so. There is a thread here by garylkoh from last year that explains cable construction and how it relates to RLC characteristics, and aims to unlock the design "secrets" of various cable designs and what to expect.
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  7. #17
    This thread is a perfect example of why I like WBF. We have the true believers who are so common on audiophile forums, but we have as many pragmatists. Balance. I'll take it.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  8. #18
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    Sure it can - and very easily so. There is a thread here by garylkoh from last year that explains cable construction and how it relates to RLC characteristics, and aims to unlock the design "secrets" of various cable designs and what to expect.
    Ack,

    Sure it can ? If it is the thread I am thinking, it was a great and interesting thread but in the end Gary conclusions were:

    "I agree - we had explored it thoroughly in the cable theory thread with simulations by Amir and a LOT of discussion. Any potential noise effects, frequency response non-linearity, phase effects, etc. are all far below the level at which we could possibly hear. What I have not been able to understand is why the two cables I proposed building in the OP sounds so very different. The differences seem to be consistent in nature, but not in level with different types of systems. That is what I was hoping to explore in this dialectic."

  9. #19
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Quick question .. How do we know that the cables "sound so different"? Just by trust? Faith? If the differences are , to use an expression from Anyrk, so "earth-shattering" shouldn't they be able to be repeated reliably ... I repeat .. repeated
    Frantz
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    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

  10. #20
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    So if I understood what you just said (a pretty big question), silver is not more/faster/better, fancy dialectics are not more/faster/better and even the length of the cable doesn't matter until you have a differential of 3 or more, what does make a difference?

    Tim
    Tim,

    Just one detail. Fancy dielectric materials and metals in cables are not an audiophile mania. They are used in many applications, such as aeronautics, space research, radiation detectors and many others, because of reliability, consistency of manufacture, long term stability and capability of foreseeing any changes in electrical properties during its lifetime.

    Surely there are no intrinsic faster/slower sound properties of electric materials.
    Last edited by microstrip; 05-26-2011 at 07:26 AM.

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