Ripping SACDs the right way

mansr

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Ok. So same tracks, aligned at the start, eventually gets out of sync? Example please.

The screenshots of the Chet Baker disc show it clearly. In the continuous Sonoma capture, there's a few seconds of silence between tracks which is not included in the single-track files from the PS3 rip. When combined back to back, the total length of the PS3 tracks is then a bit shorter than the Sonoma capture.
 

miguelito

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The screenshots of the Chet Baker disc show it clearly. In the continuous Sonoma capture, there's a few seconds of silence between tracks which is not included in the single-track files from the PS3 rip. When combined back to back, the total length of the PS3 tracks is then a bit shorter than the Sonoma capture.
Ok, not sure I understand... Silence between tracks is a non-issue to me (this is what I meant by leader/tail).

From what you say above I gather the Sonoma is producing multiple tracks vs one dsf file out of the PS3? Might this be because the Sonoma might be interpreting a longer silence as a track break? Or maybe the Sonoma rip includes more leader/tail time?
 

bonzo75

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Size/duration of the files aside, what is the difference in the sonic quality of the two files played
 

Yuri Korzunov

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The assumption was the Sonoma was not post processing any data. If this is not the case then the whole thread is meaningless! :)

All ISO, containing uninterrupted stream across full album, what I seen, have no irregularities at track borders.

These irregularities easy detected. Need merge two neighbour tracks accurate to sample. If will irregularity (1 and more sample(s) loss/damage) in place tracks borders will noise splashe like picture here.
 

mansr

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Ok, not sure I understand... Silence between tracks is a non-issue to me (this is what I meant by leader/tail).

If playing the whole album gapless, you want those pauses, or the transition from one track to the next will be too abrupt. The inter-track gaps can also contain non-silence. In a live recording it might be applause and artist chatter. Some people prefer to have that included on playback (and some artists can be quite entertaining), some perhaps don't.

From what you say above I gather the Sonoma is producing multiple tracks vs one dsf file out of the PS3? Might this be because the Sonoma might be interpreting a longer silence as a track break? Or maybe the Sonoma rip includes more leader/tail time?

It's the other way around. The Sonoma capture is done by playing the SACD on a transport and recording the digital output. The PS3 rip is a multi-stage process whereby the entire disc is first copied to an ISO image file, then individual tracks are extracted as dsf or dff files. It's the second part that appears to be missing the non-track audio data.
 

miguelito

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If playing the whole album gapless, you want those pauses, or the transition from one track to the next will be too abrupt. The inter-track gaps can also contain non-silence. In a live recording it might be applause and artist chatter. Some people prefer to have that included on playback (and some artists can be quite entertaining), some perhaps don't.
Ok, I get that and I agree. However, this is a slightly different issue compared to the one I am really interested in which is the quality of the playback itself.


It's the other way around. The Sonoma capture is done by playing the SACD on a transport and recording the digital output. The PS3 rip is a multi-stage process whereby the entire disc is first copied to an ISO image file, then individual tracks are extracted as dsf or dff files. It's the second part that appears to be missing the non-track audio data.
Exactly, agree. And it would be super if this discussion leads to an improvement in the ISO->DSF code, wouldn't it? :)

But it is not just that either: if you truly care about proper gapless playback that exactly mimicks what you'd get from playing the physical media, then there's also the issue of the software players for the dsf files and how they handle gapless. This of course affect all rips, PS3 or Sonoma or otherwise.
 

mansr

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Ok, I get that and I agree. However, this is a slightly different issue compared to the one I am really interested in which is the quality of the playback itself.

There is zero evidence of any difference in the audio data other than possible glitches at cut points, nor is there any reason to believe that there might be any.
 

Bruce B

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Looks like processing applied (fade in/out at begin/end).

May be need turn OFF processing in settings (software that process 2 bottom tracks)?

Here same example how remove clicks via fade in/out.

As alternative can be used seamless conversion.

Fade in/out processing allow pass by clicks due player gapless disability (if player don't support gapless playback).

Also begin/end clicks passed by if tracks played separatelly (not into its album).

Other hand, fade in/out can give some irregularity at track borders. For minimizing audible irregularity can be applied special tricks of fade in/out.


Files were imported with no processing. I'm not the one with the problem as I know how Pyramix to get seamless operation. Thanks....
 

Bruce B

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Ok, I get that and I agree. However, this is a slightly different issue compared to the one I am really interested in which is the quality of the playback itself.



Exactly, agree. And it would be super if this discussion leads to an improvement in the ISO->DSF code, wouldn't it? :)

But it is not just that either: if you truly care about proper gapless playback that exactly mimicks what you'd get from playing the physical media, then there's also the issue of the software players for the dsf files and how they handle gapless. This of course affect all rips, PS3 or Sonoma or otherwise.

It seems the folks who use the PS3 have a problem with it. I'm totally satisfied, as are my clients, with the results, including gapless playback with no artifacts.
 

Bruce B

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There is zero evidence of any difference in the audio data other than possible glitches at cut points, nor is there any reason to believe that there might be any.

Zero evidence? I showed you the evidence in Post #191. Right at the beginning of the album the audio is different! ;)
 

mansr

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Sep 20, 2015
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Zero evidence? I showed you the evidence in Post #191. Right at the beginning of the album the audio is different! ;)

I meant differences not at the very start or end of a track.

That fade-in is a bit mysterious, but it is probably down to some difference in how track starts and ends are handled. Could your SACD transport be doing that somehow?
 

Bruce B

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I meant differences not at the very start or end of a track.

That fade-in is a bit mysterious, but it is probably down to some difference in how track starts and ends are handled. Could your SACD transport be doing that somehow?

I've used 2 transports... the Playback Designs and the EMM Labs. Both are exactly the same.

Geez..... seems everytime I post something, it gets posted on 2-3 other forums. This is all I'll have to say about this topic for now. Thanks everyone!
 
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mansr

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Sep 20, 2015
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I've used 2 transports... the Playback Designs and the EMM Labs. Both are exactly the same.

Geez..... seems evertime I post something, it gets posted on 2-3 other forums. This is all I'll have to say about this topic for now. Thanks everyone!

Well, thanks for the screenshots and additional details. I've ordered a copy of the Mozart disc and will report back what I find.
 

mansr

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Sep 20, 2015
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It would be like comparing CD rips directly from the disc data vs playing the disc on a cd player, taking the digital output, and recording it in your computer. "Bits are bits" but frankly I would not expect those two to be identical.

I figured I'd test this, so I ripped a random CD using cdparanoia and no special options to a wav file. Then I played the same CD in a PS3 (I don't have any other CD transport) while capturing the optical S/PDIF output. After aligning the start, every last bit matches. That's what I expected.
 

tailspn

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Jun 28, 2011
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I meant differences not at the very start or end of a track.

That fade-in is a bit mysterious, but it is probably down to some difference in how track starts and ends are handled. Could your SACD transport be doing that somehow?

I explained the why of that to miguelito in post #207.
 

mansr

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Sep 20, 2015
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I explained the why of that to miguelito in post #207.

You explained the start/stop markers. That does not explain why the Sonoma capture has a fade-in at the very start of the first track where the PS3 rip doesn't.
 

tailspn

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Jun 28, 2011
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You explained the start/stop markers. That does not explain why the Sonoma capture has a fade-in at the very start of the first track where the PS3 rip doesn't.

Because the fade-in occurred prior to the track start marker on the SACD, so therefore wasn't included in the PS3/SACD_extract track. That was the point of my explanation.
 
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mansr

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Sep 20, 2015
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Because the fade-in occurred prior to the start marker on the SACD, so therefore wasn't included in the PS3/SACD_extract track. That was the point of my explanation.

Except that's not the case. Look at the screenshot again. The fade-in starts at the same point as the music on the PS3 track.
 

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