Ripping SACDs the right way

miguelito · Sep 22, 2015

Yuri Korzunov said:
Fade-in/out always DSD editing operation. I.e., for this case read from SACD will not bit-perfect.

I suppose SACD audio player device do any fading after conversion to analog.

I don't think that PS3 do it.

Fade in/out would not be bit perfect surely. More importantly fade in/out is lame and should not be done, period!!! If the musician did it then fine, it's their choice and I respect that, but a rip or player doing that? Trash bin I say!

And if a fade in/out is required so that you don't get clicks on gapless, then guess what... Fading in/out is not what gapless is about.

miguelito · Sep 22, 2015

Mansr (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-the-right-way&p=340008&viewfull=1#post340008) did a double rip: CD ripped directly and CD ripped via toslink out into computer (from a PS3 as a player no less). After alignment of the WAVs the two files are bit-identical.

Why can't we do this for PS3 and Sonoma rips and settle this question once and for all please? If you can't align in DSD space, then use 24/176 wavs - at least in that space I would like to see a comparison. Showing plots of waveforms is interesting but doesn't tell me much about how a few aligned seconds of bits compare. This is a clear question, with a clearly defined answering methodology.

mansr · Sep 22, 2015

miguelito said:
Maybe it was in the track to start with, the PS3 dsf just started later due to a belated marker? Or maybe it's Sonoma post processing?

I have received the SACD in question. Right now I'm doing a CD-quality digital capture of the PS3 simply playing the full disc. If it starts with a fade-in, it should show up there. Later I'll get it set up for ripping.

Yuri Korzunov · Sep 22, 2015

miguelito said:
Fade in/out would not be bit perfect surely. More importantly fade in/out is lame and should not be done, period!!! If the musician did it then fine, it's their choice and I respect that, but a rip or player doing that? Trash bin I say!

And if a fade in/out is required so that you don't get clicks on gapless, then guess what... Fading in/out is not what gapless is about.

My logic is simple:

1. PS3 > sacd_e?tract create files that able merge (with bit accuracy) seamless due no noise splashe at spectrogram.

2. Thus practically possible extracting data without fading. I.e. SACD contains bit perfect data beginned from certain marker.

mansr · Sep 22, 2015

mansr said:
I have received the SACD in question. Right now I'm doing a CD-quality digital capture of the PS3 simply playing the full disc. If it starts with a fade-in, it should show up there. Later I'll get it set up for ripping.

This is what the start of that capture looks like:

Compared to Bruce's screenshot, I'm not sure what to make of this.

A curious detail is that the CD layer is ever so slightly stretched compared to the SACD downsampled by the PS3. If I rip the CD layer and align the start with the SACD capture, the end is off by about 62 ms.

tailspn · Sep 22, 2015

mansr said:
A curious detail is that the CD layer is ever so slightly stretched compared to the SACD downsampled by the PS3. If I rip the CD layer and align the start with the SACD capture, the end is off by about 62 ms.

Welcome to the world of mastering

mansr · Sep 22, 2015

tailspn said:
Welcome to the world of mastering

I've seen the same sort of discrepancy between different releases of the same CD as well, so I'm not exactly surprised.

mansr · Sep 22, 2015

I have now ripped the SACD to an ISO image. The md5sum is 7a82c26fa7465cf73e7e250dd20c0646. Using sacd_extract, I extracted the stereo track to a single dff file, which I then converted to 88.2kHz 24-bit wav using sox. This is what that looks like (top) next to the digital capture of (unmodified) PS3 playing it (bottom):

And zoomed in a bit at the start:

The audio remains perfectly aligned to the end.

The dff contains 9028932864 samples. Extracting the audio to one file per track results in 14 files with a total of 9028895232 samples, 37632 fewer than the full-disc file. These 13 ms are missing from the end of the last track.

mansr · Sep 22, 2015

Bruce B said:
Here is the DG release of Mozart: Requiem - Karajan UPC028947163923

The PS3 rip is on the top and the Sonoma rip is on the bottom. Right from the beginning, these 2 are different.

Bruce, is there any chance you could share the first few megabytes of the Sonoma capture? I'd like to compare it to the rip I did on my PS3.

miguelito · Sep 22, 2015

mansr said:
A curious detail is that the CD layer is ever so slightly stretched compared to the SACD downsampled by the PS3. If I rip the CD layer and align the start with the SACD capture, the end is off by about 62 ms.

Is this for one track?

mansr · Sep 22, 2015

mansr said:
A curious detail is that the CD layer is ever so slightly stretched compared to the SACD downsampled by the PS3. If I rip the CD layer and align the start with the SACD capture, the end is off by about 62 ms.

miguelito said:
Is this for one track?

No, that's for the entire disc.

miguelito · Sep 24, 2015

mansr said:
No, that's for the entire disc.

Did you get to do the DSD comparison?

mansr · Sep 24, 2015

miguelito said:
Did you get to do the DSD comparison?

I don't have anything to compare it to. If Bruce, or someone else with a similar setup, would send me a piece of such a capture from the same disc, I could compare to that.

miguelito · Sep 25, 2015

mansr said:
I don't have anything to compare it to. If Bruce, or someone else with a similar setup, would send me a piece of such a capture from the same disc, I could compare to that.

Ball is on Bruce's court methinks...

Bruce B · Sep 25, 2015

miguelito said:
Ball is on Bruce's court methinks...

mansr said:
I don't have anything to compare it to. If Bruce, or someone else with a similar setup, would send me a piece of such a capture from the same disc, I could compare to that.

What disc? What do you want? The Sonoma creates non-interleaved files. I have no way of posting here.

mansr · Sep 25, 2015

Bruce B said:
What disc? What do you want? The Sonoma creates non-interleaved files. I have no way of posting here.

The Mozart Requiem disc. Can you save, say, 30 seconds to a file? That would be enough to see if the DSD data matches at the start and what he hell is going on with that fade-in.

miguelito · Oct 8, 2015

mansr said:
The Mozart Requiem disc. Can you save, say, 30 seconds to a file? That would be enough to see if the DSD data matches at the start and what he hell is going on with that fade-in.

Did you get something?

Bruce B · Oct 8, 2015

miguelito said:
Did you get something?

The Sonoma creates non-interleaved files. Never heard from anyone what they wanted!

miguelito · Oct 15, 2015

Bruce B said:
The Sonoma creates non-interleaved files. Never heard from anyone what they wanted!

I think all that mansr wants is a snippet of a dsf track coming from the Sonoma rip to compare with the PS3 ripped and dsf'd file. Just 30 secs would do, mansr can align whatever portion it is and do a bit-for-bit comparison after alignment.

Bruce B · Oct 15, 2015

miguelito said:
I think all that mansr wants is a snippet of a dsf track coming from the Sonoma rip to compare with the PS3 ripped and dsf'd file. Just 30 secs would do, mansr can align whatever portion it is and do a bit-for-bit comparison after alignment.

I have not been contacted on where to send anything. I have 32TB of ripped files so he can have anything he wants.

Ripping SACDs the right way

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