Lack of live, dynamic percussion and drums in audio systems

caesar · May 12, 2011

I believe there is general agreement in our hobby that fast transients and lack of dynamics are major limiting factors in creating the live music illusion in the home. Reproducing a drum with a live impact is a major challenge to audio systems, and I believe that's why Wilson has been so successful as a speaker company. But before the speaker even gets the signal, electronics are in the way...

I recently compared a couple of very hign end cd players in the same system - the Boulder and the dCS Scarlatti. The dCS sounded more natural in the highs, but Boulder had a very live bass that gave the music an excellent foundation. Boulder guys would be the first to say that they are not adding or subtracting anything from the signal deliberately, but are just passing it along. And so would dCS!

Yet others like Naim add nice pacing and rhythm to the music to make it more engaging, but lack the lively, visceral percussiveness that Boulder has. Why don't more companies engineer that "realness" in the foundation? Is this an engineering limitation or an audiophile taste limitation?

JackD201 · May 12, 2011

Most of the time I find that the limitations are in the recordings themselves. In the majority of songs I play drums and percussions are deeper in the mix. Rarely is the drummer the leader of the band anyway. It is easy to blame the system for this but when I play percussion centric music like Dafos or Paramita, it becomes clear the system pretty much up to the task.

caesar · May 12, 2011

JackD201 said:
Most of the time I find that the limitations are in the recordings themselves. In the majority of songs I play drums and percussions are deeper in the mix. Rarely is the drummer the leader of the band anyway. It is easy to blame the system for this but when I play percussion centric music like Dafos or Paramita, it becomes clear the system pretty much up to the task.

I couldn't agree more with you. I always assumed that great dynamics just come from the recording first, and then impacted by speaker design --- until I heard the 2 cd players in the exact same system. And the difference was huge.

Robh3606 · May 12, 2011

until I heard the 2 cd players in the exact same system. And the difference was huge.

That seems odd. What would be limiting the dynamics in a CD player?? Analog output stage??

Rob

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

I wonder if it was due to different DACs or was the same DAC used in your comparison, Caesar

JackD201 · May 12, 2011

Most probably. I wonder what the peak voltage swings of the Bolder and Scarlatti are.

Nyal Mellor · May 12, 2011

Many reasons:

- compression in the loudspeakers
- compression in the recordings
- excessive decay time at low frequencies due to the room

Interesting that you heard big differences between CD players though!

Yesterday I was calibrating a home theater system with Pro Audio Technology (Paul Hales is the designer / owner) in a dedicated acoustically designed room. They are compression drivers with pro audio drivers. Not short on dynamics at all...our ears were hurting way before we ran out of SPL capability.

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

Interesting that you heard big differences between CD players though!

I agree. Bits are bits or am I missing something

caesar · May 12, 2011

Yes, I was really surprised also. It was a 4 box Scarlatti and 1 box Boulder. The signal went into a Boulder preamp and amp. And Boulder guys, who are engineers before audiophiles, would say : we are just taking the signal given to us.

It was really interesting that Boulder clearly excelled on the bottom (and thus in PRAT) while the dCS on top and in "naturalness" of the sound. Also, I do know that Stereophile has reviewed both of these, and I have no doubt both have exemplary measurements, or this would have been all over the forums.

microstrip · May 12, 2011

caesar said:
I (...) Boulder guys would be the first to say that they are not adding or subtracting anything from the signal deliberately, but are just passing it along. And so would dCS! (...)

Caesar,

These guys will sing this song in public, but all of them "tailor" their sound in some systematic way. Otherwise audiophiles would not accept to pay such a high price for these state of the art players.

Phelonious Ponk · May 12, 2011

caesar said:
Yes, I was really surprised also. It was a 4 box Scarlatti and 1 box Boulder. The signal went into a Boulder preamp and amp. And Boulder guys, who are engineers before audiophiles, would say : we are just taking the signal given to us.

It was really interesting that Boulder clearly excelled on the bottom (and thus in PRAT) while the dCS on top and in "naturalness" of the sound. Also, I do know that Stereophile has reviewed both of these, and I have no doubt both have exemplary measurements, or this would have been all over the forums.

Let's be clear, Ceasar, you're talking about player/DAC units from the two manufacturers, not just transports, right?

Tim

caesar · May 12, 2011

Phelonious Ponk said:
Let's be clear, Ceasar, you're talking about player/DAC units from the two manufacturers, not just transports, right?

Tim

Correct. But the transports may be modded. I know for a fact that Boulder uses an Esoteric transport that they have fiddled with and "Boulderized" to improve error checking. dCS also uses a modified Esoteric transport, from my recollections of a presentation I once heard.

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

I assumed he was talking about transports and not player/DAC which if so makes it difficult for me to understand why they should sound different

caesar · May 12, 2011

Steve Williams said:
I assumed he was talking about transports and not player/DAC which if so makes it difficult for me to understand why they should sound different

What surprised me is the liveliness and PRat, and made me wonder why others don't do it also.

RBFC · May 12, 2011

I'd wager that the analog output stages and their current capability, etc. are at the root of these differences.

Lee

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

So which was it? A transport only or a player/DAC

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

RBFC said:
I'd wager that the analog output stages and their current capability, etc. are at the root of these differences.

Lee

Me too

Mike Lavigne · May 12, 2011

i have a number of 15ips 1/4" master dubs with quite outstanding percussion and drums. in my system these demonstrate what is possible in reproduced percussion and drums. you then step down into vinyl, DSD, hirez PCM and redbook and you can hear the effect of the format on the level of realism present.

no; analog tape is not the same as live, even in my system. but percussion and drums are particularly useful to demonstrate differences between media as it is so easy to hear. note decay and bloom as well as texture and the sense of reality in the leading edges and shimmer of the percussion quickly exposes PCM as lacking.

these type recordings do challenge a system to retain energy between the speaker and the room. an overdamped room loses the open top end and air of a great drum kit. the explosiveness of the drums is lost if you don't have a smooth and coherent deep to mid bass region that both goes deep and has a foundation.

as i've worked thru the problems in my system and room this area of performance has really come alive. i'm satisfied with it.

regarding how specific digital players might vary on this issue; i'm not sure there is much difference between them (players of similar quality and price) with the same software. performance in this area is much more dependant on other factors.

microstrip · May 12, 2011

RBFC said:
I'd wager that the analog output stages and their current capability, etc. are at the root of these differences.

Lee

Surely part of it but not the whole story. If you look at the digital processing and conversion techniques of these two units you will see that they are very different.

Power supply techniques also play a very important part (OK, you can say that the the power supply is part of the analogue output stages). Input impedance of most of modern units is over 50 kohm and low capacitance - current capability should not be an issue.

BTW if you accept that the CD laser reading mechanism can have a contribution to sound you are in the witchcraft domain.

Phelonious Ponk · May 12, 2011

caesar said:
What surprised me is the liveliness and PRat, and made me wonder why others don't do it also.

Don't do what?

Tim

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