Source of tape other than tape project

RogerD · May 14, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
Roger,

i apologize if i came off as denigrating 4-track tapes as a format, and if by inference i was disrespectful. that was not my intent. 4-track tape is a high quality format especially at 7 and 1/2ips.

however; 4-track tapes are extremely inconsistent in their quality, and they are now 40-50 years old. they have been stored in widely varying conditions and played on machines of various states of repair. and tape media is not as robust and tolerant of less than ideal storage as an Lp. so the odds of getting very good ones is low.

and even at their very best, 4-track tapes are not quite as good as my vinyl. i would say that they are competitive, or maybe even a little better, than 'good performance' vinyl. yes; they have that continuousness of tape going for them, but their noise floor is higher than my vinyl. and since i already have 12,000 Lps and very high quality turntables why would i spend time pursueing a format that does not exceed what i have.

for the most part; the music on 4-track tapes is easy listening. any rock or jazz or desireable classical is somewhat expensive.

so overall the 4-track equation for me does not work out.

Steve,

i did have the dPV 'Tim deParavicini Technics RS-1700 that i sold to a friend, and i still have a stock Technics RS-1500.....which i've not fired up in at least a year.

Mike you are fine, I understand completely.

RogerD · May 14, 2011

naturephoto1 said:
Mike,

I am going to just start getting into tape with the Ampex project that I am working on with Roger. To me though at least as a start the Tape Project tapes with such a limited source of material at $300 each ($1800 for 6) for a tape subscription or $500 each per album that is a bit steep at least to begin. I want something a bit more reasonable in cost than that.

Rich

Maybe it is possible to do a "buy in" of one or two titles for those that don't want a subscription or want to test the water. Say ten people get together,10 x 300.00 would be a pretty good sale.

naturephoto1 · May 14, 2011

RogerD said:
Maybe it is possible to do a "buy in" of one or two titles for those that don't want a subscription or want to test the water. Say ten people get together,10 x 300.00 would be a pretty good sale.

Hi Roger,

That could be a possibility as long as The Tape Project wouldn't balk at this even if it was done outside of their knowledge (that is if they found out about such a deal or "consortium"). By the way, a subscription is for a single series and is 6 tapes for $1800.

Rich

Steve Williams · May 14, 2011

RogerD said:
Maybe it is possible to do a "buy in" of one or two titles for those that don't want a subscription or want to test the water. Say ten people get together,10 x 300.00 would be a pretty good sale.

I know of a few people who are splitting a subscription

RogerD · May 14, 2011

Steve Williams said:
I know of a few people who are splitting a subscription

That's a good idea too. How do they decide who get's what,flip a coin, or do they trade tapes back and forth.

amirm · May 14, 2011

Maybe we could have a thread about splitting subscriptions and see if we can find reasonable splits?

Bruce B · May 14, 2011

amirm said:
Maybe we could have a thread about splitting subscriptions and see if we can find reasonable splits?

Almost like a divorced couple... you get the Cray tape every other weekend and I get the Nojima tape on holidays!

tony ky ma · May 14, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
i'll add one more little idea to this thread.

making tapes of other media seems to me a waste of time. if the goal is top performance then play the native format, the tape can't improve it. if you want top performance you will need expensive ($50 per 30 minute reel at 15ips 2-track) tapes, 2 of them for most albums. anything less will be compromised in performance. and digital is a much better way to go if your goal is not top performance as it's almost free and way easier to use.

if you just 'like' how tapeing other media sounds then knock yourself out, but it's not otherwise logical.

tapeing live events is, of course, wonderful in every way. maybe i could also add that if you have a great FM Tuner making a high quality tape of a live performance from that 'could' be wonderful......as the FM Tuner can be almost like a live mic feed.

HELLO Mike
I tape live events ( effected by musician ,instrument ,mic & equipment ,place etc,) also listen to TP, 2 track 7.5 ips, 4 track in 7.5 too vs to LPs. only the 4 track 7.5 will below LPs depend on condition and machine, but they are different kind of sound will depend on to your favor, in my system only direct cut LP can match to 2 track 7.5, my LP system is not the very top one but with a lot of mods and tweaks, benz micro ruby with silver step up transformer in WE437A tube with transformer coupling LCR filter (Tango's product) all silver cable can sound pretty good to me already, start to with tape only in 2 years ago when I haven't any more ideas to up grade my LP system, after started with tape I found there are a long way to go for endless top quality, and I am going to design a repro amp with tubes in a simi pro machine like PR 99 for a 4 track 7.5 use and see if it can match to 2 track in a SS home use machine, if it can then those cheap 4 track can alive again. from Bruce, $8K to $15K for 2000 copies righ of a master dub, if we use 7" 456 tape 2 in 15 or one in 7.5 in 2 track for one music, then the cost will not too much can fit for most people who want to get in, for those who want best of best can creat his own master by very expensive mic ,over million $ violin and famous player but that is endless
cheers tony ma

Mike Lavigne · May 14, 2011

tony ky ma said:
HELLO Mike
I tape live events ( effected by musician ,instrument ,mic & equipment ,place etc,) also listen to TP, 2 track 7.5 ips, 4 track in 7.5 too vs to LPs. only the 4 track 7.5 will below LPs depend on condition and machine, but they are different kind of sound will depend on to your favor, in my system only direct cut LP can match to 2 track 7.5, my LP system is not the very top one but with a lot of mods and tweaks, benz micro ruby with silver step up transformer in WE437A tube with transformer coupling LCR filter (Tango's product) all silver cable can sound pretty good to me already, start to with tape only in 2 years ago when I haven't any more ideas to up grade my LP system, after started with tape I found there are a long way to go for endless top quality, and I am going to design a repro amp with tubes in a simi pro machine like PR 99 for a 4 track 7.5 use and see if it can match to 2 track in a SS home use machine, if it can then those cheap 4 track can alive again. from Bruce, $8K to $15K for 2000 copies righ of a master dub, if we use 7" 456 tape 2 in 15 or one in 7.5 in 2 track for one music, then the cost will not too much can fit for most people who want to get in, for those who want best of best can creat his own master by very expensive mic ,over million $ violin and famous player but that is endless
cheers tony ma

Tony,

there are many valid perspectives based on experience.

that said; 2 track 7 and 1/2ips (especially if it's a 1st generation live recording) is a world apart from 4-track 7 and 1/2 ips commercial tapes dubed at 5X or 6X speed. you cannot even compare the 2 approaches.

i've heard quite a few high performance 2-track 7 and 1/2ips tapes, many which were indistinguishable from a 15ips 2-track tape. obviously, the care of the set-up and excellence of the source have much to do with the result. maybe 4-track can get close to this. if so, i've never heard that.

as far as how Lps compare to which tape formats. you need to be very specific at to particular vinyl set-ups, what tape players and specific tapes.

for purposes of this thread, and commenting on ebay commercial 4-track tapes, they at best are equal to good level vinyl IMHO.

Steve Williams · May 14, 2011

so Mike

which of your R2R's do you use for 4 track

Mike Lavigne · May 14, 2011

Steve Williams said:
so Mike

which of your R2R's do you use for 4 track

i have listened to 4-tracks on the dPV RS-1700 and the stock RS-1500.

the dPV RS-1700 is very very good sounding. i've played Tape Project tapes and other 15ips material on it and it is even competitive with the Cello Studer to a degree. the 4-track heads on it were gone over by Tim deParavicini and sound very good.

the stock RS-1500 is competent but a bit rough and comgested in direct comparison to the dPV RS-1700.

Steve Williams · May 14, 2011

Only reason I ask is that like you I have found the 4 track to be just so-so

mep · May 14, 2011

The biggest knock against 4 track tapes for me is the noise. And the noise comes from two sources: the tape itself at 7 1/2 ips and the noise from the other side of the tape coming through to an extent. When the music is jamming, you really don't notice either. When the music gets quiet, you notice both noise issues. And having said all of that, they still have lots of the magic that only tape has.

Mark

Steve Williams · May 14, 2011

I agree Mark

c1ferrari · May 14, 2011

Mike Lavigne said:
...tapeing live events...

Hiya Mike,

This is my objective AND analog all the way

Maybe, I'm a glutton for punishment, but I have to try and obtain first-hand experience. There's a learning curve regarding miking techniques and microphone selection, obviously, but my intent is to KISS.

Hopefully, I'll achieve something that merits listening

c1ferrari · May 14, 2011

tony ky ma said:
I tape live events ( effected by musician ,instrument ,mic & equipment ,place etc,) cheers tony ma

Hi Tony,

I'm interested in location recording with analog gear. Are your analog efforts exclusively in a sole setting, a recording studio/space, for example? Or, do you travel with your analog recording set-up? If you travel and record on location, what do you use, if I may inquire?

At one time, during my nascent phase of analog R2R research, I imagined myself travelling about with an A820...LOL

Ki Choi · May 14, 2011

c1ferrari said:
Hi Tony,

At one time, during my nascent phase of analog R2R research, I imagined myself travelling about with an A820...LOL

Don't forget the 14" reels and tapes for your A820 when you hit the road Sam...

c1ferrari · May 14, 2011

Ki Choi said:
Don't forget the 14" reels and tapes for your A820 when you hit the road Sam...

Excellent observation, Ki...okay -- so, my concession to logistics is to record 15 ips rather than 30 AND accede to 1/4" rather 1/2"

...note to self: Exercise patience and source Nagra - LOL

Ki Choi · May 14, 2011

c1ferrari said:
Excellent observation, Ki...okay -- so, my concession to logistics is to record 15 ips rather than 30 AND accede to 1/4" rather 1/2"

...note to self: Exercise patience and source Nagra - LOL

Hi Sam:

At 15 ips, you should get good hour with 14" reel without having to reload since it has just about double the lengths of tape than the normal 10" reel. Rich Brown should chime in and share his live recording experiences. He mentioned how noise from the tape machine can be a big factor during classical recording sessions.

tony ky ma · May 14, 2011

c1ferrari said:
Hi Tony,

I'm interested in location recording with analog gear. Are your analog efforts exclusively in a sole setting, a recording studio/space, for example? Or, do you travel with your analog recording set-up? If you travel and record on location, what do you use, if I may inquire?

At one time, during my nascent phase of analog R2R research, I imagined myself travelling about with an A820...LOL

Sam
We start to tape live event only from two years ago, my partner who is a classical music fan and a diyer of string instrument, also fan in hi end audio too but today all amps in his system is custom built by me , he like to have mini concert in home for chamber music only, piano + violin + cello etc,
we started with a Revox A77 4 track, audio technica cardioid mic and a SS mic preamp inside the living room. after change and change many times we found the best sounding place is the indoor swimming pool room and the equipment change to Royer ribbon mic with tube, custom built WE437A+WE300B mic preamp, Studer A80 modified with tubes and silver transformers, all cables in silver too. A CBC radio's engineer show us how to set mic in first ( we only use two mic no mixer) now we know where to set each time in different positions depend on instrument, so we only in one location and chamber classical music only, beside to dub copies from our master tape, maybe also can pay for the copy right from musical company to make copy by our two modified A80 in future, this is all my experience in recording
tony ma

Source of tape other than tape project

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