Contemplating Reel to Reel

naturephoto1 · May 1, 2011

I know that many of you here on the forum use and are big proponents of Reel to Reel tape and tape machines.

I am contemplating getting into this some time possibly in the future. But, due to space constraints (my room is only 19' 4" X 14' 7") and the room is used for 2 channel as well as for Home Theater I can not install one of the big studio units. So, I am considering possibly getting one of the Pro or "Prosumer" table top units.

In the past and even now, though I have never owned a big open reel machine I always liked the Tandberg and the Revox models. I know that most/many of you are into the Tape Project modified machines and the Tape Project tapes, which to say the least are pricey. Unfortunately for me I am not that interested in most of the Tape Project recordings and at $1800 for a 6 tape subscription for a single series of 6 tapes or $500 each that seems expensive particularly if it is not something that I particularly want.

Also, and disappointing to me is the fact the Bottlehead has decided only to modify the Otari MX-5050 series and the Technics RS1500 series 2 channel tape machines. It is too bad that will not do this extensive work on a Tandberg or Revox machine to reach these levels of performance and approach the performance of the big studio units.

Also, I am not looking to spend big money on one of the Jcorder Technics RS1500 series units just to have it then heavily modified for Tape Project tapes. I know that I can find some good machines in excellent condition on both eBay and also Audiogon. I am also sure that many of you know of other sources as well for units with some kind of warranty and in excellent order.

Also, there is the question of what to do and to select for having an outboard Tape Head Preamplifier made for the system. Do I go with having one of the Bottlehead Eros Tape Head Preamplifier Kit assembled ($799 + $295 assembly), get something like the DeHavilland Model 222 preamplifier (Introductory pricing $2295), or go as far as the Bottlehead Tube Repro ($4,000 base).

How do the RTR machines connect to these outboard preamps? Just with RCA or XLR ICs? Also, do the outboard preamps then just connect to my Line Stage Preamp by ICs?

Thanks for all of your consideration, observations, and suggestions.

Rich

amirm · May 1, 2011

naturephoto1 said:
How do the RTR machines connect to these outboard preamps? Just with RCA or XLR ICs? Also, do the outboard preamps then just connect to my Line Stage Preamp by ICs?

Others can confirm but I think you have to mod your tape deck and connect a coax to the tape head and bring it out back to connect to the pre-amp.

microstrip · May 1, 2011

Some people say very nice things about the Studer PR99s modified by SonoruS . See:

http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php?topic=967.0

I still own a PR99 Mk3. It is very reliable machine, and as it uses the same spares as the Revox B77, very easy to source at eBay, maintenance is low cost compared to the other prosumer machines.

RogerD · May 1, 2011

Hi Rich,

I think everybody knows here that I have and prefer Ampex decks. I have a custom Ampex 440C that is multi speed and plays both 2T and 4T tapes. Now these decks are a good deal for the money and for our use level will last a lifetime.

I think a 440C with the 2T,4T headstack with selectable 2 speeds can be purchased for 2K, the one thing I like about these decks is they are bullit proof,have discrete electronics and do not have all the micro processor logic that can drive the user nuts.

There is a gentleman who custom builds aluminum cases for these that are compact and beautiful, I also have a tech in So. Calif. that builds them.

The Ampex decks can sound as good as anything available,parts are plentiful and for the money invested in them give a great return.

Just my opinion.

Some pics of my Ampex 440C and also another with the compact case and the 2T 4T headstack.

mep · May 1, 2011

Amir is correct. If you want to use an outboard tape preamp, you have to have a set of RCA jacks brought out from the tape head. A very cheap way to get into a R2R deck that will play back 2 track 15ips tapes is to buy an Ampex ATR-700. This machine was designed for recording studios and only has XLR inputs and outputs which of course you can get adapters for. The Ampex ATR-700 was actually built by TEAC for Ampex which is why it sells for as cheap as it does. People don't think it's a *real* Ampex so the price has stayed far below what it is really worth. I haven't checked lately, but you used to be able to buy them for around $200 which is insane. This is a 65 lb machine that sounds very good and they are crazy good for the money.

tony ky ma · May 1, 2011

Hi Richard
I don't know this one will you be interested, my friend got this Telefunken deck from Ebay less $400, he was told tele's head made of copper is the best, so he bought it. the potable machine is powered by 24v battery so he asked me to make the power supply and check the machine can work or not,it come with a handbook but in Germany that I can only guess and that caused me erase part of my tape too , 24v 1A is not enough 2.5A start to work I am going to build a 4A, I think that will sound more better, workmanship and structure are super 3 speeds ( 7.5 + 3.75 +1.875) 2 tracks, color in military green ( military product ?) if I drop it by accidentally to a ceramic floor I am sure the damage must be the floor, more surprising me is the sound, it play those 7.5/ips pre recorded 2 tracks tape (50 years old) with a very solid image in high density compare to my Revox PR99 (modified) and Studer A810 (modify with tube out put just better in emotion only )but the mechanism is not as smooth as those two and a bit noise of the DC motor, it only come with power cord but no inter connect cable and the connector of out put is hard to find, I had to re-wire to use the headphone biding post as line out, It is in DIN standard but in handbook it is list in 7.5 speed is 50 to 1380 us that is same as NAB so play those pre recorded NAB 2 tracks tape is no problem, to-day there still a lot of 2 tracks tape in Ebay maybe quality is down from fresh but still can beat vinyl very easy
tony ma

RogerD · May 1, 2011

Hi Tony,

Great looking deck,I like telefunken,and those tapes,oooh Julie!

naturephoto1 · May 3, 2011

After working closely with Roger, I am looking into and quite possibly getting a custom Ampex 440C/440B hybrid multi speed (7 1/2 IPS & 15 IPS) that plays both 2T and 4T tapes.

We are checking into the cost of the preparation of a machine including the case in both silver and black.

In preparation for this I won a pair of these on eBay for a good price:

At Roger's suggestion, while they are still available, I ordered 6 Black Gate Capacitors to install into the Playback and record portions of the unit.

I would also like to thank Rich Brown for his assistance and for offering 2 of his decks to me for a good price. Rich had also indicated that a refurbished Ampex (though a 350/351) would sound great.

Rich

Ki Choi · May 12, 2011

Hi Rich:

It seems you have been inflicted with the reel to reel disease... there's no turning back now. After getting your first Ampex running well, I predict you will still be scanning eBay for other tape machines daily. When it gets really bad...contact me. I'll tell you what not to do and how to avoid ending up with a house full of - fine master studio recorders that will get your blood pumping faster every time you watch the reels turn and the VU meters jumping wildly into the red zone - pouring out hair rasing music that can't be obtained from no other media... but then always wondering how about the 1/2" tapes instead of the puny 1/4" everyone else plays...???? Why don't I get one more machine since all the boys seem to have more than one...

I feel badly for you, but welcome. I'll save a chair for you when you make the "meeting" to say - Hello my name is Rich, and I have been fondling tapes for X years...

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

mep said:
Amir is correct. If you want to use an outboard tape preamp, you have to have a set of RCA jacks brought out from the tape head. A very cheap way to get into a R2R deck that will play back 2 track 15ips tapes is to buy an Ampex ATR-700. This machine was designed for recording studios and only has XLR inputs and outputs which of course you can get adapters for. The Ampex ATR-700 was actually built by TEAC for Ampex which is why it sells for as cheap as it does. People don't think it's a *real* Ampex so the price has stayed far below what it is really worth. I haven't checked lately, but you used to be able to buy them for around $200 which is insane. This is a 65 lb machine that sounds very good and they are crazy good for the money.

Most of us have had a switch made that set one way uses the original R2R electronics whereas if set the other way allows to be played through the head amp

naturephoto1 · May 12, 2011

Ki Choi said:
Hi Rich:

It seems you have been inflicted with the reel to reel disease... there's no turning back now. After getting your first Ampex running well, I predict you will still be scanning eBay for other tape machines daily. When it gets really bad...contact me. I'll tell you what not to do and how to avoid ending up with a house full of - fine master studio recorders that will get your blood pumping faster every time you watch the reels turn and the VU meters jumping wildly into the red zone - pouring out hair rasing music that can't be obtained from no other media... but then always wondering how about the 1/2" tapes instead of the puny 1/4" everyone else plays...???? Why don't I get one more machine since all the boys seem to have more than one...

I feel badly for you, but welcome. I'll save a chair for you when you make the "meeting" to say - Hello my name is Rich, and I have been fondling tapes for X years...

Hi Ki,

Thanks. Thank goodness I only have the limited space in the listening room.

We are still figuring out how to possibly get the big Ampex Pro machine on the rack platform system in a slanted orientation.

In any case Roger has been directing me to get a lot of parts for upgrading the machine to improve the audio performance. So far we have ordered 22 Black Gate Caps (Roger and I are in receipt of all of these), 4 Sanyo Aluminum Caps (still coming from Hong Kong), and 54 resistors (being shipped directly to Roger from Parts Connexion) as replacements for the machine. In addition, we will be installing 2 replacement transformers into the machine but Roger is still to run the tests on these. I will probably give Wayne the go ahead and deposit to start building the machine on either May 20 or May 23.

Rich

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

Rich

I'm curious as to why you don't want to audition the stock unit before you start making all of the upgrades

naturephoto1 · May 12, 2011

Steve Williams said:
Rich

I'm curious as to why you don't want to audition the stock unit before you start making all of the upgrades

Hi Steve,

The machine is going to be built for me by Wayne in Palm Springs, California. So, it is tough to do an audition without spending hundred of dollars for the air fare (fly from Pennsylvania to California). Roger has a lot of experience with the machine that is being prepared and doing the same upgrades. We have purchased the Black Gates in particular since they are out of production and they have become exceedingly difficult to obtain. Wayne (who an Ampex expert and specialist) has given me a very good price on the machine in the finished form. Amongst other things, Wayne will install an IEC inlet so that I can use my preference in Power Cords. The upgrades ultimately are not really costing that much. The finished machine is going to cost close to have an Ampex 350 put into excellent working order. I know your feeling on this. But, as I have indicated Roger has been installing upgraded parts and has been observing the performance improvement.

Rich

RogerD · May 12, 2011

Steve Williams said:
Rich

I'm curious as to why you don't want to audition the stock unit before you start making all of the upgrades

Hi Steve,

The tape deck as delivered will only differ in a IEC connector installed in place of the original. As Rich said he can use the AF PC of his choice. The record and reproduce cards are going to be completely recapped and voiced for a very open,dynamic,and natural sound. These cards can be uplugged and replaced in about 3 minutes. They sit behind the small rectangular metal covers on each electronics. A factory original card set can be obtained for about $80,so if Rich wants to see how a original Ampex 440 sounds it's just minutes away.

The machine will also come with factory NAB & CCIR (Tape Project) EQ cards,calibrated for Rich's deck.

Rich following my suggestion is upgrading the machine with a very rare factory headstack thet will play and record both 2 track and 4 track tapes.

I have a set of upgraded RTZ cards in my 440 and it sounds wonderful. When I am finished I will have the same set of blackgate cards that Rich will have plus the RTZ,and the original Ampex cards.

The 440C transport is not on the same level as a Studer,but it is more than adequate when setup correctly and with the electronics,headstack versatility,for the money is a exceptional value.

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

Roger

Curious if you use a head amp with your machines and if so, which one

naturephoto1 · May 12, 2011

Steve Williams said:
Roger

Curious if you use a head amp with your machines and if so, which one

Hi Steve,

Roger is not using a head amp at this point, and neither will I. It is something for us to consider in the future, but as Roger has indicated we are making all of the changes on one set of playback and record cards. At this point, we are making these changes and upgrades as an alternative to the tape playback head amp. But, I will leave this to Roger for additional input.

Rich

RogerD · May 12, 2011

naturephoto1 said:
Hi Steve,

Roger is not using a head amp at this point, and neither will I. It is something for us to consider in the future, but as Roger has indicated we are making all of the changes on one set of playback and record cards. At this point, we are making these changes and upgrades as an alternative to the tape playback head amp. But, I will leave this to Roger for additional input.

Rich

Steve Williams said:
Roger

Curious if you use a head amp with your machines and if so, which one

Currently I have in operation my Studer A820 which is stock and my Crown decks, 2 4 channel,one has been recapped,along with a CX824. The one CX844 is stock.

My AG440C/B is using Bob Starr's RTZ audio replacement Ampex cards at the moment. They are very open,transparent,dynamic ect.

I have my Ampex 350's being upgraded now and should be complete around June 1st.

My MR70 electronics have been recapped but the transport is in the process of being restored.

I have plenty of options and personaly prefer to upgrade the original electronics so, if I want to record with a particular machine I can.

There's always different ways to skin the cat.

The different tape preamps available are always a option,but then knowing me, I would upgrade those anyway,so why bother, when all done I will have a Ampex tube,solid state,and nuvistor based electronics that will give me 3 excellant but very different "sounds".

Steve Williams · May 12, 2011

naturephoto1 said:
Hi Steve,

Roger is not using a head amp at this point, and neither will I. It is something for us to consider in the future, but as Roger has indicated we are making all of the changes on one set of playback and record cards. At this point, we are making these changes and upgrades as an alternative to the tape playback head amp. But, I will leave this to Roger for additional input.

Rich

Hi Rich

I guess this is where we really differ because using a head amp will knock your socks off. I'm sure all the caps and resistors are helpful but IMO the bang for the buck comes with the use of a head amp

RogerD · May 12, 2011

Steve Williams said:
Hi Rich

I guess this is where we really differ because using a head amp will knock your socks off. I'm sure all the caps and resistors are helpful but IMO the bang for the buck comes with the use of a head amp

Steve it is the same ole argument, which is better,now maybe you are right, I give you that. Many aftermarket equipment makers don't use the best quality parts. Over the years I have found that voicing my own equipment is far better and economical than investing in specialised gear that will limit what I can do and want to accomplish. Just my 2 cents.

Maybe someday I will want to have a Cello or a 222 for my A820,because upgrading those electronics is a non starter for me.

naturephoto1 · May 12, 2011

Steve Williams said:
Hi Rich

I guess this is where we really differ because using a head amp will knock your socks off. I'm sure all the caps and resistors are helpful but IMO the bang for the buck comes with the use of a head amp

Hi Steve,

We will have to wait and see on this. As far as the cost of the parts- the Black Gates which have gotten expensive (4X what they used to cost), aluminum caps, and resistors have cost approximately $330.

As to the tape head amps we are looking at a price of $1094 ($799 + $295 for tech assembly) for the Bottlehead Eros; $4,000 (more if you swap tubes) for the Bottlehead Tube Repro; $2300 for the DeHavilland 222; or $5,000+ for the King/Cello.

The tape head amps are substantially more expensive than the upgraded caps and resistors being used in the Ampex project. In fact all of the head amps with the exception of the BH Eros are more expensive than the building of the stock Ampex.

Let me at least get a feel for the sound before I consider any of the mentioned tape head amps.

Rich

Contemplating Reel to Reel

Member

Banned

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Industry Expert

Attachments

VIP/Donor

Member

Member Sponsor

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Member

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Member

VIP/Donor

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Member

VIP/Donor

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

Member

Similar threads