Ethernet

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

What are your takes on connecting via Ethernet in the context of Music Servers? Seems a very reliable and mature, data transmission method. Right now I have my NAS connected to the music server via wired Ethernet (both music server and NASes sit on their very own network with no interference from anything else) ...

I am curious about the use of Ethernet to tranport digital signals. Are there Ethernet DACs? if so what are their performances?... I am trying to find a simple way to drop my music server out of sight and bring signal to the DAC.. I am very much thinking (very) long fiber TOSLINK to the DAC .. Which option you would recommend .. Apartment is already wired with Ethernet.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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I think Ethernet should be standard in every DAC. But I get a lot of push back. One reason they give is that Ethernet support means lots of code, another microprocessor and chances for lowering audio fidelity. The real reason I think is that all of your profit go out of the window as you deal with all the support issues people will have in connecting to other device, and they blame it on you (rightly or wrongly). I hear for example that PS Audio is having a hell of a time with their network bridge product.

That said, I did see an Ethernet solution at CES from one of the high-end companies. I don't recall the name but it is in the CES picture thread.

BTW, Ethernet jack doesn't work. As soon as you connect to a server, you need UI to browse it. So maybe going with Logitech Squeezebox type solution if you don't want to use a PC? I have heard of potential for async USB adapters working on it.
 

rblnr

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May 3, 2010
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Meridian uses it to get the digital signal to the DAC in their speakers, so it works for them and they obviously have high standards. Bel Canto has a USB to ST fiber link -- they recommend it over spdif or to to toslink for long runs.
 

rblnr

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May 3, 2010
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Don't know, but the question was about the transmission of digital signals. Don't know that they have to use an ethernet protocol as the speakerlinks on the processors replace encrypted s/pdif connections -- which I would think very different from having to interface w/a computer a la the PS Audio bridge, et. al. But I'd think you'd have a better handle on all this than me Amir.

I've said this other places as well -- I think the Squeezebox is a hugely underrated device and pretty much obviates the need for high-end/expensive alternatives. $300 gets you a low jitter 24/96 digital out transport with a nice touch interface, and the server software outputs at the native rate automatically. It handles just about every format natively too. As it's been out for some years now, it's a pretty mature product/software.

There is a USB port hack avail to output that way, which pre-hack, works as a reader for data on a USB stick. iDevice/Android control too. Would be nice to see Logitech simply enable the USB port for output which I gather they could, but get the sense (don't have any real info to support this) they're not going to spend much more on development of the platform.
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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I’m afraid Ethernet DACs don’t exist.
Simply because you need a networked computer to access the home network.
An Ethernet DAC is simply a computer with a sound card.

The Squeeze Touch is a nice example, it is a dedicated Linux box.

If you want your “music server” out of sight you’re options are:
- Dedicated headless audio PC remotely controlled
- Streaming audio player like the Touch also remotely controlled
 

mojave

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Oct 29, 2010
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It isn't exactly what you are looking for, but J. River Media Center sells their Id which is a small, wireless DLNA DAC. They hope to have ethernet in their next version. Once you have one computer on the wireless network running MC, you can put the Id anywhere as a wireless DAC. It shows up as another zone in MC. You can then control the music being played through it with a laptop, Android phone using the Gizmo app, or any Apple device using WebRemote. Here are the specs:

The Id is a DLNA Renderer, and can work with a DLNA Controller, including MC15 or above.

Onboard wireless connection with 802.11 b/g/n

Push button setup using WPS or use Windows Connect Now and the USB port for configuration

Supports MP3, AAC, WMA, WAV (J. River Media Center is able to convert other popular formats to WAV during playback.)

Up to 24 bit / 192 Khz Audio DAC (Sabre Premier ES9022 / CS4350)

Compatible with PlugPlayer for the iPhone or with J. River Media Center's WebRemote (iPhone, Touch, Android, and WinMo) and Gizmo for the Android.

Includes RCA cables and power adaptor

1 1/2 x 4 x 4 1/2 inches, 3.8 x 10.2 x 11.4 cm, 0.38 lbs, 0.17 kg
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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According to PS Audio the Bridge contains a 500 MHz processor.
Wouldn’t be surprised if this is a Linux box running DLNA software so a networked computer.

I do think Mojave offered a better example proving me wrong.
 

Orb

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Sep 8, 2010
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Ben,
I think your being a little bit unfair to Vincent.
Technically there are no Ethernet DACs because current products include much more functionality, being more of a music server/service.
What I mean by this is that all the current products from what I understand must use the imbedded software to control-manage-define the playlist, so it is more like a complete jukebox rather than just a DAC receiving the streamed data it converts.
The downside is that from what I can tell this means you cannot rely on say other software you may like say Amarra-iTunes-etc for the playlisting and control as an example.
In a true Ethernet DAC you would use the software from the PC/Mac in a comparable way to USB DACs, but this would be a real headache to do (but is possible) and why most music ethernet solutions are really complete music server/client solutions.

Frantz, some other server/client solution thats been around awhile is the Linn DS range, however what looks to be possibly a good budget product is the very new Cambridge Audio NP30:
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=604
Or the Yamaha.
http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...ayers/np-s2000__w_color_variation/?mode=model

Sorry if I missed some others but these two are pretty new.
Cheers
Orb
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
860
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What is a DAC?

If we assume this is a box doing the DA, it is obvious a passive one or to phrase it a bit different a push technology.
A DAC with SPDIF input is a nice example.
An external box decides what is played an pushes it to the DAC.

Squeeze and Co offers much more. Basically they allow you to choose the music so pull it from a server. This requires a “networked computer”.

However JR ID or Airport Express are examples of networked DACs (push technology).
In essence passive boxes with some kind of input e.g. Ethernet or WiFi
So they do exist!
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

Questions are mostly rhetorical. For the moment I have a a "Music Server" that connects via USB to the Benchmark HDR. They both reside close and they are part of the system.

I would like to remove the "Music Server" completely from this room. This way I can use as Music Server whatever hardware I want to with no regards to aesthetics, Acoustic and RFI Noises... Long Toslink sounds good to me but may require some kind of installation (Not a big deal but installation nonetheless). The apartment is wired with Cat 6 ... with outlets almost everywhere there is an AC outlet. Using Ethernet to the DAC allows me to get music wherever I want .. Yes Wi-Fi can do that but with less efficiency and potentially the risks of collisions which reduce the throughput and increase jitter.. I was thinking that a NAS and some kind of high performance DAC with Ethernet could be interesting in that regard ... with the music server simply "routing" the chosen music stream toward the DAC ..

If that is too convoluted as I have come to understand while writing it I will simply drop the NAS and Music Server in a remote closet, run fiber to the system location and be done... The system is presently controlled by a Wi-Fi iPad or iPhone Touch anyway .. It doesn't require that I manually touch it so...

I also was wondering about the following. is there any advantage to using an external disk connected via USB or eSata to the Music Server or a NAS? I tend to think that Ethernet may induce more jitter not because of the protocol itself but because of the network stack in the computer used as music server ?

Last but not least , Vincent was right when he spoke about "networked computer". He was careful not to say "networked PC". These days anything that can have an IP address is a "networked computer" . This includes of course Personal Computers aka PC but also all kind of computing hosts many of which most people don't perceive as "computers" a NAS is such an example aand so is a router or a stand alone firewall or ...
 

Old Listener

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Jul 18, 2010
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naturelover.smugmug.com
I’m afraid you're very wrong.

You don't need a networked computer to access the home network with the PSAudio PWD/Bridge.

The PSAudio PWD with it's Bridge can connect to an NAS or plugNplay router with a USB port via Ethernet without the need for a dedicated headless audio PC remotely controlled.

Why isn't it an Ethernet DAC?

When the Bridge is connected to a pnP/DLNA server, it is functionally a streaming audio player. Apple's Airport Express is another example of a streaming player.

When the Bridge is retrieving files from a NAS, it is a headless computer doing networked file I/O.

A newcomer might expect that an "Ethernet DAC" would work with most any player. At present, there are different architectures that don't work together.

Bill
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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I also was wondering about the following. is there any advantage to using an external disk connected via USB or eSata to the Music Server or a NAS? I tend to think that Ethernet may induce more jitter not because of the protocol itself but because of the network stack in the computer used as music server ?

I know some claim this.

In your case you do have
-a dedicated audio PC used for direct playback ( I don’t call that a server)
-an outboard DAC with good jitter rejection (Benchmarks uses ASRC)

You might try
- music on the NAS, this will tell you something about the impact of the network activity
- music on local HD
- music on external HD
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is no audible difference as an outboard DAC like the Benchmark is not very sensitive to what is going on inside the PC
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
Frantz, there is another paradigm as we are showing in this image:



Use a thin, quiet, attractive, touch-screen PC next to your AV gear. To eliminate worries about PC noise/RF/etc, use a good async USB adapter to S/PDIF or AES/EBU.

Advantages:

1. No networking. It just works no matter what your router or network are doing.
2. You have flexibility of which UI you use to browse your content both locally and remotely. Since you use Foobar, you can use Remote App from Apple with iPad, etc.
3. Generous UI with the large screen and such.
4. Not single-sourced as far as support as you would be with an "Ethernet client."
5. Rich support for various formats.

Disadvantages:
1. It is a PC so if you mess with it, it becomes unreliable.
2. At $800, it might be a bit pricey.
3. Power consumption higher.
4. Touch-screen UI in Windows 7 sucks. You can navigate with it but it is not remotely the same as iPad/Android, etc. Fortunately you can also use the remote.

Something to think about :).
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
3,010
2
0
What is a DAC?

If we assume this is a box doing the DA, it is obvious a passive one or to phrase it a bit different a push technology.
A DAC with SPDIF input is a nice example.
An external box decides what is played an pushes it to the DAC.

Squeeze and Co offers much more. Basically they allow you to choose the music so pull it from a server. This requires a “networked computer”.

However JR ID or Airport Express are examples of networked DACs (push technology).
In essence passive boxes with some kind of input e.g. Ethernet or WiFi
So they do exist!

Vincent,
do those examples work with external clients such as Amarra or still rely upon a control interface specific to the box?
I agree it is possible but very difficult and requires a bespoke end to end architecture, such as the good example you mention with Airport express (with Airplay).

The point of view I am coming from is that a DAC should never have integral to it a control client that shows-manages the playlist, ideally it should still be passive and accept a stream sent by say Amarra and other music server applications that access local or network stored music, but I appreciate we all may have different perspectives on this.
But for some this may be important who want to stay using the music application they like.

Thanks
Orb
 

Orb

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
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Amir, going with your example how quiet are the best/most ideal Mac laptops combined with a solid state disk?
Just curious if there is no way to do this than with the touch screen PC if wanting a quiet small laptop-to-USB adapter type solution.

Thanks
Orb
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
98
18
138
Massachusetts/Toronto
Amir, going with your example how quiet are the best/most ideal Mac laptops combined with a solid state disk?
Just curious if there is no way to do this than with the touch screen PC if wanting a quiet small laptop-to-USB adapter type solution.

Thanks
Orb

If one is looking for "what's best" - a relative notion - this answer/system, in an absolute sense, is problematic. Disks on a commercial laptop or PC whether SSD or HDD or hybrid are not optimized for audio (or video).

What do you mean by "quiet"? No fan noise?

I have my audio and video in two different rooms.
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
98
18
138
Massachusetts/Toronto
I see the phrase "optimized for audio" frequently but rarely do I see it explained or justified.

Dear KaL,

Reply In haste, but great question.

To start with, the disks should be optimized for READs rather than WRITEs. Most popular computer disks are not. In audio we write a file perhaps once, read the music file much more often. In a typical "read/write many" PC computer disk there are hashing, defragmentation, compression, perhaps encryption and other operations that go on in the background that lead to noise and jitter when it comes to "streaming" or READing music files. (This is perhaps the reason why many say USB sticks sound "cleaner" that USB disks.) I'd rather have a clean data coming out than have to clean it up further down the line.

There are other factors: As I recall - don't hold me to it - Melco does as good a job of explaining it as anyone if you care to dig into their web site. I'll be happy to carry this on or offline but forgive me I just saw your kind reply.
 

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