The Combined Effect of Tweaks Can Be Impressive!

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
My system is sounding great this week!

...and I think it is the result of a few things I did over the past week that have created this sound. I really heard more detail and a more musical presentation on the excellent Neil Young at Massey LP that I just love.

Here's what I did and they are all cheap tweaks:

1. Used the same cable brand throughout the system. I use either Cardas GR or Kimber Hero/8TC throughout.

2. Cleaned the connections with Caig ProGold.

3. Now have Vibrapods or cones under every component except the power conditioner.

4. Employing a mix of good power cables on everything. Two Shunyata, A Gutwire B-16 and a Verastarr on the amp.

5. Fine tuned the speaker placement and have decided the tweeters on the inside toward the middle of the room is the best.

I think it was really a combination of the above. What is interesting is how close the Kimber mid-priced cable comes to the Cardas Golden Reference. The GR has better imaging and is a little smoother but the detail that comes through on the Hero and 8TC is really superb. Very dynamic too. The GR is a bit better in the highs also but I would say the Hero gets you 90% there.

The next thing I plan to try is the Cardas Clear line which I am hearing really good things about.

I've been reading a lot about the importance of reducing RFI and EMI with ac cords and I think this is really important for lowering the noise floor which just lets the music through.

It seems these things work. If you are looking for some nice improvements on a budget give them a try.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
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NSW Australia
My system is sounding great this week!

...and I think it is the result of a few things I did over the past week that have created this sound. I really heard more detail and a more musical presentation on the excellent Neil Young at Massey LP that I just love.
...

It seems these things work. If you are looking for some nice improvements on a budget give them a try.
The real message here is the title of your thread. All the little things all add up, until you get the really good sound. As Roger and I and Vince have discovered, playing with things to a sufficient degree will make it happen, and the more effort you put into it the greater the rewards ...

Frank
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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BiggestLittleCity
My system is sounding great this week!

...and I think it is the result of a few things I did over the past week that have created this sound. I really heard more detail and a more musical presentation on the excellent Neil Young at Massey LP that I just love.

Here's what I did and they are all cheap tweaks:

1. Used the same cable brand throughout the system. I use either Cardas GR or Kimber Hero/8TC throughout.

2. Cleaned the connections with Caig ProGold.

3. Now have Vibrapods or cones under every component except the power conditioner.

4. Employing a mix of good power cables on everything. Two Shunyata, A Gutwire B-16 and a Verastarr on the amp.

5. Fine tuned the speaker placement and have decided the tweeters on the inside toward the middle of the room is the best.

I think it was really a combination of the above. What is interesting is how close the Kimber mid-priced cable comes to the Cardas Golden Reference. The GR has better imaging and is a little smoother but the detail that comes through on the Hero and 8TC is really superb. Very dynamic too. The GR is a bit better in the highs also but I would say the Hero gets you 90% there.

The next thing I plan to try is the Cardas Clear line which I am hearing really good things about.

I've been reading a lot about the importance of reducing RFI and EMI with ac cords and I think this is really important for lowering the noise floor which just lets the music through.

It seems these things work. If you are looking for some nice improvements on a budget give them a try.

all of the above. I especially beleive #1 has a effect as mixing cables can be a bad thing when the noise floor is higher on just one cable. Going with all the same brand is a key here.

# 4 goes hand in hand with #1

#5 always

I don't need to remind Lee about the importance of lowering the noise floor which is really "emi & rfi rejection", He is on the right track.

Lee thanks for sharing,great news.
 
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fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
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Lee, it may be worthwhile checking out the theory of most people here about #5 being king: just mess up the placement of the speakers temporarily, and see how much the quality drops. It's the best way to really get a handle on things, do something, and then undo it, to see if the effect was really there ...

Frank
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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My system is sounding great this week!

...and I think it is the result of a few things I did over the past week that have created this sound. I really heard more detail and a more musical presentation on the excellent Neil Young at Massey LP that I just love.

Here's what I did and they are all cheap tweaks:

1. Used the same cable brand throughout the system. I use either Cardas GR or Kimber Hero/8TC throughout.

2. Cleaned the connections with Caig ProGold.

3. Now have Vibrapods or cones under every component except the power conditioner.

4. Employing a mix of good power cables on everything. Two Shunyata, A Gutwire B-16 and a Verastarr on the amp.

5. Fine tuned the speaker placement and have decided the tweeters on the inside toward the middle of the room is the best. (...)

Lee,

As you said the effect of your tweaks is cumulative. As you , I do not like to mix cables from different brands in a system - some people like to compensate some attributes or exaggerated sound features of a cable brand mixing it with another brand, but I find it very difficult to do. Usually when you use all cables from the same brand you get some coherence in sound type, and music "flows in an easier way".
This makes cables experiments much more hard-working, and changes much more expensive, but in my view is the proper way of listening to cables.

I also appreciate the Gardas Golden Reference - a real top cable at a decent price, that used in the suitable system can be compared with much more expensive cables.

IMHO it is not possible to rank the importance of all these tweaks. If you use the wrong cables you can get a miserable sound, independently of the positioning of speakers and vice-versa. They affect sound in very different, but complementary ways. (Surely, if your speakers were previously turned against a wall #5 wins :eek: ).
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

If one is using a competent set of cables ... The "noise floor" issue is ....well ..not an issue ... I often marvel on this relatively new concept., imported from the objective vocabulary : "Noise Floor" what exactly does it mean? My rapid answer anything one wants to think it does if one is a believer .. So I'll drop it
Re-positioning speakers is objectively and subjectively verifiable and repeatable ... Blind or not most trained audiophile will recognize such changes with a degree of accuracy that leaves chance out of the equation.. For the others tweaks Lee mentioned so graciously and enthusiastically .. even the most ardent defenders are not too sure to "notice" or "perceive" these if they didn't know what was done ... err... tweaked ...
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Lee, it may be worthwhile checking out the theory of most people here about #5 being king: just mess up the placement of the speakers temporarily, and see how much the quality drops. It's the best way to really get a handle on things, do something, and then undo it, to see if the effect was really there ...

Frank

I suspect most of us have "tweaked" speaker placement many, many times. I know I have.

Tim
 

microstrip

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Hi

If one is using a competent set of cables ... The "noise floor" issue is ....well ..not an issue ... I often marvel on this relatively new concept., imported from the objective vocabulary : "Noise Floor" what exactly does it mean? My rapid answer anything one wants to think it does if one is a believer .. So I'll drop it
Re-positioning speakers is objectively and subjectively verifiable and repeatable ... Blind or not most trained audiophile will recognize such changes with a degree of accuracy that leaves chance out of the equation.. For the others tweaks Lee mentioned so graciously and enthusiastically .. even the most ardent defenders are not too sure to "notice" or "perceive" these if they didn't know what was done ... err... tweaked ...

To focus on speaker placement, I will now drop the "noise floor" . But is is a very interesting subject.

As usual, speakers, rooms and listeners differ a lot. What is true in one room can be not so true in another one.

Some speakers are known to need very careful positioning - if you move them 2 cm away from the best placement you change drastically their sound. OK, everyone is now thinking about Wilson Audio speakers. :eek: Others are much less critical - big panels, such as Soundlab A1's for example, seem less dependent of very accurate placement.

But speaker positioning is also listener dependent. If three experienced people position the speakers in a room independently most probably they will not place them in the same position - I did this test in my room.

Just one question - do you think that placement of speakers is more critical in normal rooms with minimum acoustical treatment or in acoustically treated rooms?
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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BiggestLittleCity
Hi

If one is using a competent set of cables ... The "noise floor" issue is ....well ..not an issue ... I often marvel on this relatively new concept., imported from the objective vocabulary : "Noise Floor" what exactly does it mean? My rapid answer anything one wants to think it does if one is a believer .. So I'll drop it
Re-positioning speakers is objectively and subjectively verifiable and repeatable ... Blind or not most trained audiophile will recognize such changes with a degree of accuracy that leaves chance out of the equation.. For the others tweaks Lee mentioned so graciously and enthusiastically .. even the most ardent defenders are not too sure to "notice" or "perceive" these if they didn't know what was done ... err... tweaked ...

The "noise floor" concept is very easy to understand. It is simply noise generated in the system and transfered to the final reproduction. All cables are antenna and all equipment are generators. Only when the system is grounded fully can the noise be eliminated from the sound system.

Speaker placement is important,but lowering the noise floor allows the speakers to operate at their optimum level. It is not uncommon to increase the gain level in the system by several db when the ground is performing it's task by removing EMI/RFI generated interference.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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To focus on speaker placement, I will now drop the "noise floor" . But is is a very interesting subject.

As usual, speakers, rooms and listeners differ a lot. What is true in one room can be not so true in another one.

Some speakers are known to need very careful positioning - if you move them 2 cm away from the best placement you change drastically their sound. OK, everyone is now thinking about Wilson Audio speakers. :eek: Others are much less critical - big panels, such as Soundlab A1's for example, seem less dependent of very accurate placement.

But speaker positioning is also listener dependent. If three experienced people position the speakers in a room independently most probably they will not place them in the same position - I did this test in my room.

Just one question - do you think that placement of speakers is more critical in normal rooms with minimum acoustical treatment or in acoustically treated rooms?

Microstrip

I mostly agree with you... Speaker positioning is listener position dependent... Where you sit in the room determinate what you hear ... Many people sit for example too close to the back walls .. It is relatively easy to treat reflections in the highs and low in the back walls ... most absorbing material work poorly in the bass ... unless they are inordinately thick and even then ...

Your question is a tough one. Later :)
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

Believe me I know what "noise floor" is ...at least what objectively is termed and measured as such ... On the subjective side it is whatever people wants to think it is ... I can't go there ...
A competent cable should not have issue with EMI/RFI .. If one's environment has inordinate level of RFI/EMI then special cables should be used..These still don't cost a lot less than $1000 for a 1000 (!!) ft roll. Belden, Canare to name these two makes them... Blue Jeans sells them and these are routinely used by Radio and TV broadcast stations ... and since the level of EMI/RFI is several order of magnitude larger than what would be ound in any audiophile dwelling, they need the ..err..." noise floor" to be as low as possible ...
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
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Some speakers are known to need very careful positioning - if you move them 2 cm away from the best placement you change drastically their sound. OK, everyone is now thinking about Wilson Audio speakers. Others are much less critical - big panels, such as Soundlab A1's for example, seem less dependent of very accurate placement.

Absolutely, but I would add that while some speakers are more sensitive to bad placement than others, all speakers benefit greatly from excellent placement. Even dipoles and bipoles. Speaker design and placement is so important it nearly shadows everything else.

The "noise floor" concept is very easy to understand. It is simply noise generated in the system and transfered to the final reproduction. All cables are antenna and all equipment are generators. Only when the system is grounded fully can the noise be eliminated from the sound system.

I agree with all of this, but a) I think good system grounding and shielding is much easier and less expensive to accomplish than most audiophiles imagine. In fact, I think most systems simply don't have significant problems in this area and b) the ambient noise in most listening rooms is much higher than the electronic noise in even very modest systems, and the masking effect is in effect. But audible noise floor is not hard to test. Pull up a chair, pull in the speakers, turn off the HVAC system at night when the house is quiet and listen for awhile in the near field to some music with some silence in it. Listen for the noise floor and know the real depth of the windmills you're fencing.

Tim
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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BiggestLittleCity
Hi

Believe me I know what "noise floor" is ...at least what objectively is termed and measured as such ... On the subjective side it is whatever people wants to think it is ... I can't go there ...
A competent cable should not have issue with EMI/RFI .. If one's environment has inordinate level of RFI/EMI then special cables should be used..These still don't cost a lot less than $1000 for a 1000 (!!) ft roll. Belden, Canare to name these two makes them... Blue Jeans sells them and these are routinely used by Radio and TV broadcast stations ... and since the level of EMI/RFI is several order of magnitude larger than what would be ound in any audiophile dwelling, they need the ..err..." noise floor" to be as low as possible ...

Frantz I disagree with your statement that I have in bold. Subjective? No ,there is plenty of information available on the subject. The premise that it is not subjective has been made by very few in the high end audio industry. Why? because there is money to be made and lot's of it.
The high end merry go round would begin to slow noticeably if more understood the inherent problems created by EMI/RFI interference. On the other hand a select few have profited by understanding the concept also. The steps taken to mitigate this problem are surprsingly inexpensive.
That's the good news.





Link

http://www.emcuk.co.uk/awareness/Index.htm
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
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Manila, Philippines
Well, there's the noise floor of the room AND the noise floor of the system. Right now I have a hum problem. My room noise floor can be considered very low at 30dB so the hum is very prominent. If I switch the AC fan speed from low to medium, the hum is less noticeable. If I put the fan speed on high I have to strain to hear the hum.

I think speaker positioning is much more noticeable in quiet rooms. The difference is in millimeters in my room now versus centimeters in my old one using the same speakers, amplification and sources. Quiet rooms are like sports cars. They are very responsive. It also means to get the best out of them you have to be prepared to put the work in. You've got to love this stuff.
 

naturephoto1

Member
May 24, 2010
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www.nelridge.com
Besides tweaking the position of the speakers and the speakers themselves I would have to say that dealing with the acoustics of the room itself including Acoustic Room Treatments will trump all of the other tweaks that you add to a system. As a whole I use 1 or 2 brands of cables for ICs, Coax, and even speaker cables (HDMI cables are a 3rd brand). As to Power cords, I use 4 or 5 different ones which are dependent upon the specific component. Since I have installed the Acoustic Room treatments I have found that I can fine tune the position of the Herbies Supersonic Stabilizers that I have sitting on a fair number of components. These benefit particularly with compliant feet placed under most components; my modified ARC LS10 comes with the stock Black Diamond Racing Cones which are sitting on Cone/Spike Grounding Bases. Otherwise and additionally, I use specific and generally compliant feet under my 5 power amps, Phono Preamp, turntable, Power Units, Tuner, DAC, players, and Isolation Transformers.

Rich
 
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