Record Shows

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
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La Jolla, Calif USA
I went to my local Record Show yesterday. The show had about forty dealers with about 30-40,000
records. Very well attended as usual, with many people buying all kinds of vinyl.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see that almost all of the vinyl was in fair to poor condition. In the vernacular...VG+ to VG- condition; very little in Mint condition.

This got me thinking that most of us vinylphiles are probably listening to LP's that are far from the sound and condition that they were when new. Which then begs the question as to how one would really know what most of these same LP's sounded like when new:confused::confused:

If I'm like most collectors, which I believe I am, my rarest LP's are usually in Mint- to Mint condition, however, the wear that these LP's originally received is still a MAJOR factor as to their sound today.Even though they are Mint, someone probably played them when new on less than superb gear.....Therefore, i wander how many great LP's have never really been heard to their full potential:confused::confused:

With this in mind,pehaps this is where digital will win out on the long run:confused:



OTOH, if you listen to a digital reproduction, what are you then listening to,:confused: how much software has left its imprint on your music before you get to hear it?:confused:

BTW, Anyone here attend Record Shows....condition of the LP's that you acquire there?
 
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tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
I went to my local Record Show yesterday. The show had about forty dealers with about 30-40,000
records. Very well attended as usual, with many people buying all kinds of vinyl.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see that almost all of the vinyl was in fair to poor condition. In the vernacular...VG+ to VG- condition; very little in Mint condition.

This got me thinking that most of us vinylphiles are probably listening to LP's that are far from the sound and condition that they were when new. Which then begs the question as to how one would really know what most of these same LP's sounded like when new:confused::confused:

If I'm like most collectors, which I believe I am, my rarest LP's are usually in Mint- to Mint condition, however, the wear that these LP's originally received is still a MAJOR factor as to their sound today.Even though they are Mint, someone probably played them when new on less than superb gear.....Therefore, i wander how many great LP's have never really been heard to their full potential:confused::confused:

With this in mind,pehaps this is where digital will win out on the long run:confused:



OTOH, if you listen to a digital reproduction, what are you then listening to,:confused: how much software has left its imprint on your music before you get to hear it?:confused:

BTW, Anyone here attend Record Shows....condition of the LP's that you acquire there?


Davey- believe it or not, I coat my LP with thin silicon can turn to look shinning as new and sound good too if they don't have too much scratch, even the brand new re-issue that coating can protect dust and static and needle and vinyl too
tony ma
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
Davey,

I am a regular at the Atlanta Record Show. We have typically three dozen vendors, all but around ten focused on vinyl. The show is very hit or miss but when it is good it can be terrific. Some general observations:

**Get their early as the good stuff goes fast. I pay $10 to get in as the dealers are setting up. $3 is the regular admission at 10am.

**Vinyl quality varies greatly by dealers. We have everything from the pristine outer-sleeved and categorized quality dealer to unorganized, "thrown into a cardboard box" dealer. I hate when things are not organized but sometimes I find a gem or two.

**As vinyl popularity has grown, the quality of vinyl left at the shows has worsened with the exception of the better quality dealers who source LPs from multiple cities and states.

**My conclusion is that supply of vinyl has essentially remained flat (excepting the audiophile and new reissues) while demand has grown. That is leading to more scarcity of the better pressings and a slight lift in prices.

**Atlanta shows are much better than NYC shows due to lower market prices here in general and less demand.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Tony, I wander if you could elaborate as to how you coat your LP's with silicon? I occasionally use a product called Gruv Glide, which is a liquid lubricant that is applied via a pad to a dry record surface. However, it does nothing for scratches etc. Although it can quiet down a noisy Lp somewhat.

Lee, i do agree with your thoughts on the various vendors and quality at these shows, however, i generally arrive towards the middle/end of the show, as I am not really interested in what the majority of people are looking for and I find that the dealers
are more prone to negotiate at that time.
 

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
Tony, I wander if you could elaborate as to how you coat your LP's with silicon? I occasionally use a product called Gruv Glide, which is a liquid lubricant that is applied via a pad to a dry record surface. However, it does nothing for scratches etc. Although it can quiet down a noisy Lp somewhat.

Davey- I posted that action in tweaks last September with pictures too, you can try it on one side, and compare listening with the other side to see how difference it will be. deep scratches can't help anymore but can improve the rest, hard to explain by works you have to feel it by yourself
tony ma
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,467
11,363
4,410
I went to my local Record Show yesterday. The show had about forty dealers with about 30-40,000
records. Very well attended as usual, with many people buying all kinds of vinyl.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see that almost all of the vinyl was in fair to poor condition. In the vernacular...VG+ to VG- condition; very little in Mint condition.

This got me thinking that most of us vinylphiles are probably listening to LP's that are far from the sound and condition that they were when new. Which then begs the question as to how one would really know what most of these same LP's sounded like when new:confused::confused:

If I'm like most collectors, which I believe I am, my rarest LP's are usually in Mint- to Mint condition, however, the wear that these LP's originally received is still a MAJOR factor as to their sound today.Even though they are Mint, someone probably played them when new on less than superb gear.....Therefore, i wander how many great LP's have never really been heard to their full potential:confused::confused:

With this in mind,pehaps this is where digital will win out on the long run:confused:



OTOH, if you listen to a digital reproduction, what are you then listening to,:confused: how much software has left its imprint on your music before you get to hear it?:confused:

BTW, Anyone here attend Record Shows....condition of the LP's that you acquire there?

i'm not much for record shows myself. let's face it; if you have really great quiet pressings you are not going to be selling them. so what changes hands is mostly second rate stuff. which can still be 'good enough'.

i'd rather try to buy collections intact and then accept good and bad; but at least get plenty of good. you might pay $800 for 1500 Lps. 300 are junk, another 500 might be duplicates of thrift store records, but you might get 700 very good to great Lps for $1500, or about $2 per Lp. the discovery process of sorting thru unfamiliar but good Lps is about as much enjoyment as this hobby can offer in terms of new music and the fun of getting your world rocked by something unexpected.

i have about 12,000 Lps; of which likely i purchased 3000+ brand new, another 2000 purchased individually used, and the rest from collections or thrift shops.

of the approx 4000 that i play regularly (my 'A' group---another 3000 in my 'B' group); about 95% are very quiet, and of the maybe 1000 i play constantly, some hundreds (or even many hundreds) of times, i hear zero deterioration from use. yes; i keep them clean. my cartridges track a low VTA's (1.8 grams typically) and my cartridges are set up very accurately.

so when i hear about how digital is somehow better becuase it lasts longer; it makes me mad. in fact; between the clear greater likelyhood of delamination of a CD than an Lp wearing out, as well as hard drive failure more likely than Lp wearing out......vinyl is much more the eternal product. and that's without speaking about performance.

in my early years of cleaning Lps i did use Last record preservative. but i have not used it in 7 or 8 years. i cannot hear any difference between one of my 'Last' preserved Lps and ones that have not had that treatment.

keep Lps clean.

run low VTF.

keep cartridge alignment spot on.

pretty much forget about Lp wear.

i'm not claiming that there is no effect of repeated playing of an Lp. just that in my time with my Lps i have not heard any effect. (i'll add one caveat to that statement, i do hear an occasional added 'tic' here and there [which many times goes away with cleaning], but no diminshed musical content whatsoever).

getting back to record shows. really, i've not spent time at them so i'm not one to comment. but that has not been my path to buying Lps.

for the beginner or someone looking to add some depth to a collection; my advice is to frequent thrift stores, buy Lps cheap and then sort thru them. you'll learn about what can be found cheap and what sounds good, then you won't learn about that while over-paying for 'fodder' at a record show. you'll know what cannot be found at goodwill.
 
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Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
Mike,

Good post but I differ on two things. First, I find great stuff all the time at record shows. If you know what deadwax to look for, you can often outsmart the dealers who generally grade and price based purely on title popularity. Second, low VTF is not always advisable as with Grado carts the upper end of the suggested range is better. For my Lyra, I use the recommended force as advised by the company.
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
I should add that flea markets have been kind to me. Part of the thrill is the hunt for new gems.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
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458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Mike,

Good post but I differ on two things. First, I find great stuff all the time at record shows. If you know what deadwax to look for, you can often outsmart the dealers who generally grade and price based purely on title popularity. Second, low VTF is not always advisable as with Grado carts the upper end of the suggested range is better. For my Lyra, I use the recommended force as advised by the company.

Lee, I do basically agree with you regarding record shows and the ability to occasionally find great stuff. Although I do think that over the last few years, the quality and selection has diminished at these shows:(. In fact, at the last show, one of the dealers told me that they do not bring their better stuff to the show, instead favoring the web as an outlet. ( wider and more affluent audience, etc.)

Mike, I think that as a LP collector, you have to utilize all of the various venues and avenues available to you. All of your suggestions are valid, along with shows, libraries, etc.

BTW, I also believe that you should set the TF of a cartridge as to the manufacturer's recommendation, in some cases, it is known that too low a TF can in fact damage groove walls.
So, to automatically set a low TF is not always a good idea:eek:
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Everybody needs to remember the bad old days of MM/MI cartridges where there was a similar race going on with the Japanese spec wars with zeros after the decimal point on distortion measurements, and that was the race to see who could have the lowest tracking force with I believe Shure leading the way. So manufacturers started adopting a range of VTF you could track at even though they never really wanted you tracking at the low end, always the high end of the range. The lower number looked better on paper to those who cared about such things.
 

karma

New Member
Jun 17, 2011
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White Rock, New Mexico
HI,
I have been using Last Record Preservative and Stylast since around 1980. I do not use their cleaning products though they are probably excellent. I have developed my own which work well.

The products must be used correctly. The Preservative and Stylast are designed to work together as a system. You will not get the full benefit unless you use both. And, you need a good RCM with a strong motor and a horizontal platter, such as the VPI models, to apply Last. This will really fill out the tool set.

If used correctly, I believe the claims made by the Last Company. If not done right, you get less benefit, or maybe, none at all. Read their web site. I know it seems like snake oil but it's not. I have been promoting Last for years but folks don't seem to believe me. I really don’t blame folks because the claimed benefits are pretty amazing. The only way to know is to try it.

I have run a careful, disciplined, long term experiment to either confirm or deny their claim of extended stylus life. I started with a brand new line contact stylus (a Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 cartridge). Without Last, one could expect about 1000 hours of life before wear forced replacement. This was my second cartridge of this type. So, I knew what to expect. Also, long experience told me 1000 hours is about the typical life span of all styli no matter what their shape. It does not vary much. After all, a diamond is a diamond.

I checked for wear both by ear and, periodically, with my Shure stylus microscope. It reveals the truth. I set up an hour’s counter to keep track of playing time. The experiment was simple but required some determination and discipline. With an experiment like this, it is very important to be totally consistent. Here is how I did it.

I NEVER played a record unless it had been thoroughly cleaned on my VPI 17 RCM and then treated with the preservative. I NEVER played a side without first treating the stylus with Stylast. There were no exceptions. Even if a friend brought a favorite record over to my listening room for a listen, I would not play it unless I first washed and Lasted it. Once, a friend got pissed but calmed down when I explained the experiment. I Lasted his record then played it. It was good!

Cleaning (washing) the record is very important. The mold release residue that clings to all records must be removed in order to allow Last to form a chemical bond with the vinyl. Cleaning solutions should contain alcohol which is the only solvent I have found that will remove the mold release and not harm the vinyl.

I deep clean the stylus with an electronic stylus cleaner and isopropyl alcohol…about every 20 records. This removes a varnish-like residue that builds up on the stylus. I’m not sure of its origin. It may be Stylast baked onto the stylus surface by the heat build-up due to friction when playing a record. It is easily removed with a stylus cleaning brush and alcohol. Be careful!

The result? After 4000 hours the stylus still sounded new and the microscope revealed no wear at all. The experiment is still under way. From all indications, the stylus will last indefinitely. Probably, the stylus suspension will fail before the diamond wears out.

I think Last products are fantastic. They do what the manufacturer says they do. They have other benefits that I can confirm. Rather than repeat them here, check out Last's website at:

http://www.lastfactory.com/Products/...servative.html

I realize that one experiment on one cartridge does not constitute a statistical truth. However, my long experience (over 45 years) with cartridges and my long term use of the Shure stylus microscope adds to the body of evidence that lends credibility to Last products and my experiment. I will continue the experiment because I am convinced that my records and styli are better off with Last than without. The experiment has become my normal record playing practice.

Sparky

Edit, an update.
In my write up I mentioned that I use an electronic stylus cleaner. I have been using it for years. I have stopped using it. The reason is the coils in my Clearaudio cartridge went open. This, of course, is a disaster. I don't know if the cleaner caused the problem or not. However, it is very suspicious that both coils failed. It seems unlikely that a defect in the cartridge would have caused BOTH coils to fail. The only thing I can think of that could cause such a failure is the vibrations from the cleaner. So, be warned and please be careful.
 
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jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
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I tend to agree with Mike L regarding record shows but that may reflect personal preference. I've spent enough time digging through crap in order to find a 'nugget'. I'd rather purchase from trusted sources even if it means paying more. (Buy the best and it only hurts once).

My experience with LAST products is decidedly different from Sparky's. I find that the LAST treated records tend to sound flatter and duller and I stopped using it. If it works for someone else great. My advice is to try it on a couple duplicate records or something you're ambivalent about before making a long term commitment. I am religious in my use of the Loricraft with Audio Intelligent fluids on all records.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Jazzdoc and Sparky, I am kind of in both of your camps:confused:. I agree with Jazzdoc that the Last LP treatment seems to be not that effective and yet i do agree with Sparky that the stylus treatment is very effective.
I have used the Stylast for over 20 years and it has never damaged any of my cartridges and I believe it has extended their life considerably.
For LP treatment I much prefer the Gruv Glide spray and I highly recommend it. ( Like the LAST LP treatment, you do need to apply GruvGlide correctly as per the instructions).
 

karma

New Member
Jun 17, 2011
320
1
0
82
White Rock, New Mexico
HI All,
In my post above, I was basically concerned with describing the long term experiment and its results. But, I thought I should fill in some blanks concerning some of Last's properties I did not mention.

Static charge. I live in very dry, very dusty New Mexico. This morning my hygrometer is reading off scale below 20% relative humidity. This is fairly typical. As you know, with air this dry static charge is a problem. Static charge and the dust it attracts has been the bane of my existance. Records crackle and pop as I pull them out of their plastic sleeves.

I have tried probably every gadget and tool that has hit the market to help or eliminate the problem. I could start a museum for dust removal/prevention. Nothing worked very well. Yes, I use a dampened Discwasher (original version) before playing every side. In the past, my favorite tool was the old Watts Dust Bug. I have tried several different types of carbon fiber brushes but I have never found a way to eliminate the fine line of dust that remains. I don't use them any more. I have used the Discwasher static gun which helped a little. But I found them a hassle to use and not that effective.

Last has solved the problem. I mean REALLY solved the problem. With Last, static charge does not build up. Records no longer crackle and pop. Other than incidental dust floating in the air that just happens to land on the record, dust is not accumulated. I still use the Discwasher to remove the incidental dust but none is attracted. This is wonderful.

Sparky
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
My sinuses can't take the dust. It's a bit more expensive but I'd rather buy from reputable record dealers like WBF member Jadis directly. The used LPs come play graded and clean. The slightly higher prices makes up for getting ripped off on e-bay and other similar risks.
 

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