Skin Effect

DonH50

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Alternating current carriers in a conductor tend to travel near the surface. This happens due to opposing eddy currents from the magnetic field generated whenever alternating current (a.c.) flow is present. These are not generated by direct (d.c.) flow since current flow is all in the same direction and thus opposing eddy currents are not created. The effect is frequency-dependent, resulting in carriers traveling closer to the surface at higher frequencies. Because less cross-sectional conductor area is used as frequency increases, the effective resistance rises as frequency increases. Note that at d.c. (0 Hz) the entire cross-sectional area of the conductor is utilized.

Skin depth (sd) is the depth at which current density has fallen to about 1/3 (actually, 1/e, or about 0.37x) the density at the surface. The definition arises from EM equations beyond the scope of this article. A related term is the penetration depth (T), the depth by which virtually all current in the conductor flows. If the depth is greater than the conductor’s depth, then the conductor’s entire cross-sectional area will be used and d.c. and a.c. resistance will be essentially the same. At higher frequencies, only part of the conductor’s depth may be used, and effective (a.c.) resistance increases.

Figure 1 shows both parameters (skin depth and penetration depth) over frequency, from 10 Hz to 100 kHz, for copper wires. As you can see, by 1 kHz it is around 0.1”, and at 20 kHz the skin depth is only 0.018”, with T = 0.025”. This is for an isolated wire; parallel or coaxial conductors cause a slight (~3%) change.

skin_depth..JPG
Figure 1: Skin Depth (sd) and Penetration (T) vs.Frequency​

How much this matters in audio circuits is a matter of debate (of course). The table below shows the diameter of various wire gauges commonly used. Note that stranded or solid wire type has little impact on these calculations, though d.c. resistance is just a hair higher for stranded wire. Litz wire, bundles of smaller-diameter insulated wires, can be used to reduce the impact of skin effect. At 20 kHz, all the diameter of 22-gauge wire or smaller is utilized, and a.c. and d.c. ressitance are essentially the same. Larger wire will be impacted by skin depth, with only about 31 % the diameter of a 12-gauge wire being utilized to carry signal current. However, note that the d.c. resistance of AWG 12 wire is only about 10 % that of AWG 22, so even after giving up so much due to skin effect, you are still better off than using the smaller wire.

AWG table..JPG

In the real world interconnect impedances are so much higher than wire resistance (for typical cables) that skin depth is a non-issue, IMO. For speaker cables, while there is a clear argument for larger gauges to improve damping factor and provide high current capacity, skin depth is generally not a concern because the cables are larger and higher impedance can usually be tolerated at higher frequencies. Recognize that the d.c. resistance of a 10-foot piece of AWG 12 cable is only 0.016 ohms, still a very small number compared to the impedance of most speakers, so if skin depth doubles or triples that value at 20 kHz it is still a very small fraction of the load impedance, and much smaller than the output impedance of most amplifiers at 20 kHz.

This will not stop the debate, of course. :)

References:
1. Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
2. Reference Data for Radio Engineers, 5th ed., Howard W. Sams & Co, 1968
 

muralman1

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I have practical evidence here that

1st) of all, keep the insulation to micro thinness or they will tarnish the sound.

2nd) the shape of the carrier is of the utmost importance at any length. Round rounds off the highs and lows, coiled mushes, and very thin flat wins the day handily.
 

FrantzM

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I have practical evidence here that

1st) of all, keep the insulation to micro thinness or they will tarnish the sound.

2nd) the shape of the carrier is of the utmost importance at any length. Round rounds off the highs and lows, coiled mushes, and very thin flat wins the day handily.

:D but ultimately :rolleyes:
 

Phelonious Ponk

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How does skin effect apply to digital cables?
 

JackD201

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Audiophiles are easily affected by either Thick Skin Effect or Thin Skin Effect............sorry I just couldn't keep that one in ;) ;) ;)
 

microstrip

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As usual Don did an excellent work presenting the skin effect in wires.

The most well know consequence of this wire property is the Lizt wire, used mainly at radio-frequency applications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire

I still remember seeing it in the coils of shortwave receivers - usually using hundreds of very thin insulated wires wrapped in a cotton support, or in the coils of ferrite antennas of old receivers.

Although there are no measurable reasons to use it in audio, several manufacturers use this type of wire in their cables - the Cello strings by Mark Levinson, van den Hul, Nordost and Straightwire are just some I have used. (Some of them need some special techniques to terminate the cables, as the insulation of all the strands has to be removed. Most DIY people do not have the tools to solder it properly). I am not sure if the current MIT and Transparent cables use the Lizt wire technique.

But even solid core partisans did some work on it - I remember an old Hifi News report that considered that the optimal diameter of the single solid wire for an interconnect should be between .6 and .7 mm . For speakers 1.2mm was the recommended diameter.

But as there are many other factors that influence the sound of a cable, it is not easy to separate the contribution of the skin effect from the others - see for example the Matched Propagation Conductor patent of George Cardas of Cardas Audio.

Also, some high-end manufacturers use Lizt wire coils and foil coils in the crossovers of their speakers.
 

mep

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Scientific experiments are different than scientific evidence.
 

muralman1

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Scientific experiments are different than scientific evidence.

Dear Mep, Science is all about testing hypothesis. I have proved to my satisfaction the different geometries make a marked difference, My second finding concerned the effect of insulation. I can write a scientific paper if you wish. That paper will make it clear to fully understand the scientific premises, you would have to copy my system. Whether one is testing cold fusion, or light refraction you would need to borrow or copy the methods of science experiment. If someone would do that, in my case, you will be rewarded by the same easy to hear results. Someone might graph the results.
 

amirm

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Posts deleted.

I say again: please take debates to other areas. This section is for technical talk and questions for the article author.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I just wanted to know what Muralman was talking about, I couldn't tell if it was related to the topic. I'd still like to know how skin effect impacts digital cables, which are carrying electronic pulses that represent digital data. I'm interested in how it can push high frequencies to the outside of the cable in such a case. Back to Muralman's posts, it would also be nice to understand how skin effect affects flat wire.

Tim
 

muralman1

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I just wanted to know what Muralman was talking about, I couldn't tell if it was related to the topic. I'd still like to know how skin effect impacts digital cables, which are carrying electronic pulses that represent digital data. I'm interested in how it can push high frequencies to the outside of the cable in such a case. Back to Muralman's posts, it would also be nice to understand how skin effect affects flat wire.

Tim

I just wanted to know what Muralman was talking about, I couldn't tell if it was related to the topic. I'd still like to know how skin effect impacts digital cables, which are carrying electronic pulses that represent digital data. I'm interested in how it can push high frequencies to the outside of the cable in such a case. Back to Muralman's posts, it would also be nice to understand how skin effect affects flat wire.

Tim

I am with you Tim. It seems my hypothesis can be tested with a simple frequency detector and assigned a numerical result for all to see. I sure would like to see this. full gauge Round wires roll off low and high frequencies. This has been heard on two systems and by many people. Now, I would like the differences graphed.
 

DonH50

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Guess I missed all the fun, spent the day playing at church and with my family (eldest son home for the weekend for Easter). Thanks for keeping it clean Amir (et. al.)

How does skin effect apply to digital cables?

Just like any other high-frequency signal. As the frequency goes up, currents tend to occupy only the outer regions, and resistance goes up. Whether the added resistance matters is a function of the cable and system. Most RF cables are designed to handle a pretty broad bandwidth and carry a maximum power rating; exceed at your peril. In practice, it should not be an issue for consumer circuits, but is one of those things that can contribute to signal degradation.

I purposely stuck with audio-frequency signals in this thread, as that is where I have seen much debate. As usual, there is some truth (and a lot of misconception) on all sides of the issue.

I will note that digital signals (pulse trains) have pretty wide bandwidth, and while skin effect itself is probably not a concern for any decent cable, the quality of connections and cable can degrade the signal. Wide-band systems with good pulse response must have low dispersion and be well-matched (cable, connectors, source and load) to avoid reflections that can cause data corruption (as discussed in an earlier thread).

The basic equation for skin depth is sd = 2.60 / sqrt(f) inches. At 10 MHz, that's 0.000822" (0.8 mils), and at 100 MHz the skin depth is 0.00026" (0.26 mils). So, for even relatively low-speed digital systems, skin depth can impact cable loss. Where things gets gnarly is when we start to look at how skin effect interacts with other parameters, e.g. distributed capacitance and inductance that in combination with skin effect can cause dispersion. That is, different frequency components of the pulse "see" slightly different RLC terms, leading to pulses that become "smeared" instead of having clean edges. Again, for typical consumer signals this is not a big deal, and there is lots of error correction that takes place behind the scenes to limit problems, but up in the GHz region life can get tough.

As an example, for HDMI cables, I would be inclined to buy the ones with heavier-gauge wires and better connectors, though am more likely to buy Blue Jeans than a more esoteric brand. Not having tried more expensive HDMI cables I cannot say if they would be better. I am fairly sure that part of what makes better cables better is better construction quality, including better (and better-assembled) connectors.

Is that better? :)

HTH - Don
 

DonH50

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As to shape, skin depth does not care, though the equations for cross-sectional area get complicated. Wires are usually round because they are easy to make; mmW waveguides are often square or rectangular. The skin depth is the same. If there is an effect due to wire shape ("carrier" to me means a couple of other things, neither related to wire shape) I suspect something else, like the coupling between wires (e.g. two flat conductors may have less coupling than two large round conductors in close proximity). That would be another thread...
 

muralman1

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As to shape, skin depth does not care, though the equations for cross-sectional area get complicated. Wires are usually round because they are easy to make; mmW waveguides are often square or rectangular. The skin depth is the same. If there is an effect due to wire shape ("carrier" to me means a couple of other things, neither related to wire shape) I suspect something else, like the coupling between wires (e.g. two flat conductors may have less coupling than two large round conductors in close proximity). That would be another thread...

I am talking about three wire configurations all using spades sounding radically different, from ok to very good to superb. I will add all three cords were lightly clad.
 

DonH50

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Speaker cables? I am still thinking about a thread on those... I would be glad to think about your test, but I'd need a lot more information about the wires and system, and that is outside the scope of this thread. It does sound intriguing. You are welcome to start another thread, or drop me a PM or email. In the meantime, enjoy the music! We should never let technical details obscure the reason for having these wonderful gadgets. - Don
 

muralman1

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Don, sorry about not understanding the scope of this topic titled, "Skin Effect." I was always under the impression skin effect imparted sound differences, and seems to be of concern to many cable makers. I will go back and brainstorm your graph. My apologies to you and Amir, both true gentlemen.
 

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