When is Hi-Res not really Hi-Res?

thestewman · Sep 6, 2011

Bruce

Nobody is questioning your integrity or the services you provide. I think the basis for the complaints is the denial stance that HD TRacks has taken in rectifying any apparent or incorrect sale of substandard HiRez files.

Here is copy from the HD Tracks web site.

"Our 176.4kHz/24-bit FLAC files are virtual clones of the original master recordings, delivering the experience of sitting in the control room of the recording studio.

For example, with our exclusive Rolling Stones release, ABKCO Records undertook a long and painstaking re-mastering process employing state-of-the-art master tape to digital file transfers using the best in Analog to Digital converters to provide HDtracks with the highest quality music files possible. These albums are unprecedented in quality and are available as FLAC files from HDTracks.com. "

This is not what they have been supplying and they continue to deny any problem.
What they should do is refund the money from any customers who are experiencing problems due to the file not being Hi Rez and take the product off their site even though it will cause their music library to be smaller.
Maybe they can re-establish their integrity with the audiophile community.
We are the main purchasers of their product.

Bruce B · Sep 6, 2011

thestewman said:
Bruce

Nobody is questioning your integrity or the services you provide. I think the basis for the complaints is the denial stance that HD TRacks has taken in rectifying any apparent or incorrect sale of substandard HiRez files..

I totally agree, but I don't run HDtracks. We can only provide the information to them what we find.

Kippyy said:
I'm surprised by Bruce's response upthread, in that he doesn't seem to acknowledge that his own credibility is damaged if/when HD Tracks sells watered-down files that he supplies as proper.

The above quote is certainly calling our credibility into question.

audioguy · Sep 6, 2011

Bruce B said:
HDtracks send to a 3rd party vendor (me and others) to turn into a downloadable format. We then check the file to see what it sounds like, do any conversions or whatever, attach metadata and send it back to them for them to put up on their servers.

At this point in the process would it be possible for you and others to run the tests decribed in this thread to determine if it is or is not a hi-rez file?

It may not be in the current description of your job but maybe if you posed it to HD Tracks, they may buy into the idea and get this issue fixed.

Then all they need to do it refund the money to all of the people they sold non hi-rez files to as though they were hi-rexz files, and all would be right in the world (sort of)

Bruce B · Sep 6, 2011

audioguy said:
At this point in the process would it be possible for you and others to run the tests decribed in this thread to determine if it is or is not a hi-rez file?

It may not be in the current description of your job but maybe if you posed it to HD Tracks, they may buy into the idea and get this issue fixed.

As described in post #80.. we check EVERY ALBUM to determine if it's hi-rez or upsampled!

What HDtracks does with that information is not up to us!

RBFC · Sep 6, 2011

So, if a submitted track is identified as redbook or upsampled, as opposed to true high-res, HDTracks and other vendors may or may not disclose that information. They may elect to offer the download for sale regardless. A few possibilities exist:

1. The cost of the initial product from the label (if it is found to be redbook/upsampled) makes requesting a true high-res product unprofitable. This assumes that there might be an additional charge from the label for sending a second product.

2. The vendor (HDTracks, etc.) simply chooses to go with what they've got. In this case, the profits generated from complaint-less sales would more than offset what remedial actions they might take for those customers who complain.

3. There is a problem with their download manager system in such a way that some files are clipped at redbook resolution. Admittedly, I don't know enough about the process to make any guesses, but we must at least extend the possibility that the vendors aren't actively involved in selling "low-res" versions advertised as "high-res".

Lee

RBFC · Sep 6, 2011

Bruce,

Have there been any complaints, with accompanying evidence, of any other files you've tested being advertised as different than your test results? The quandary Amir examined is one example.

Lee

microstrip · Sep 6, 2011

Bruce B said:
Short answer: 3 steps

Recording - artists sing/play into mics and gets recorded
Mixing - all of the parts come together and get balanced
Mastering - all of the 2-track mixdowns are then assembled into a coherent album and the label gets sent the files, DDP master, laquer or ??
You can read more about mastering HERE

HDtracks licenses the titles from the labels. (say $10k for 10k downloads) The labels send whatever they can get a hold of, be it tape, SACD, digital file or whatever.
HDtracks send to a 3rd party vendor (me and others) to turn into a downloadable format. We then check the file to see what it sounds like, do any conversions or whatever, attach metadata and send it back to them for them to put up on their servers.

The problem I see with this system is the total lack of information about all the aspects concerning the second phase. HDtracks should supply details about what they are selling - what are the formats involved and who is the 3rd part vendor and what conversions are done.

Gregadd · Sep 6, 2011

Fraud as a cime is defined by statute. ICC maybe defined by Federal statue. Fraud is also basis for a civil action. Genrally Fraud is:
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.

Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property, including real estate, Personal Property, and intangible property, such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.

Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

Bruce B · Sep 6, 2011

RBFC said:
Bruce,
Have there been any complaints, with accompanying evidence, of any other files you've tested being advertised as different than your test results? The quandary Amir examined is one example.
Lee

Yes, there are a few others including all of the Stones 176.4 files

wgscott · Sep 11, 2011

amirm said:
Seeing I am also a customer now , I went ahead and emailed them my complaint. Let's hope they respond properly.

Did you get any reply?

They ignored me completely.

Manelus · Sep 12, 2011

Is there an issue with Stones 176.4?

Bruce B · Sep 12, 2011

Manelus said:
Is there an issue with Stones 176.4?

IMO... yes

Manelus · Sep 12, 2011

Sure, I supposed that, but could you please point me to the issues to learn what is it about?

Thanks

Bruce B · Sep 13, 2011

Manelus said:
Sure, I supposed that, but could you please point me to the issues to learn what is it about?
Thanks

HERE

RBFC · Sep 13, 2011

Everyone, as we continue this discussion, please remember that Bruce B. is not responsible for the decisions to sell any files at HDTracks. He has made clear the extent of his function with the vendor(s) of high-res files. He is therefore "harmless" in terms of any disputes arising over the validity of files sold there. He is also not responsible for remediation for any disputes.

Thanks,

Lee

Steve Williams · Sep 13, 2011

Thanks Lee. A very timely and appropriate comment

Bruce B · Sep 13, 2011

Thanks Lee...

amirm · Sep 13, 2011

FYI, I did not get an answer to my complaint about the issues in this thread

. Wonder if they ignored it, went into a spam folder or what.

Orb · Sep 13, 2011

Amir,
can you contact them by telephone and discuss the issue and also ask what happened to the email?
I agree with the

But I guess like you say benefit of doubt for now, but it is looking potentially ominous for customer service.

Cheers
Orb

wgscott · Sep 13, 2011

My guess is that they are now well aware that the problems are a genuine concern. I hope they are able to address them in a productive way. Ideally, this would mean replacing questionable material with good material, where that possibility exists. I can't speak for everyone, but I am not out to get them. But I would like to be able to buy from them with confidence. Right now I feel like it is a total crap shoot.

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