When is Hi-Res not really Hi-Res?

audioguy · Sep 5, 2011

Amazing --- I don't care how many files are to be converted. They are either selling hi rez files or they are not. They advertize and claim in mail (I got the same form letter from HD Tracks) but yet are clearly allowing non-hi rez files to be sold as hi-rez.

If they can't handle the volume to GUARANTEE I am getting what I pay for, then they either need to get the resources to handle the volume or they can be sure I will no longer be a customer.

If I were allowed in my company to say "oops" on a regular basis (or lie about it in writing) I would be out of business. I find their excuses unacceptable.

Bruce B · Sep 5, 2011

audioguy said:
If I were allowed in my company to say "oops" on a regular basis (or lie about it in writing) I would be out of business. I find their excuses unacceptable.

O'kay.... vote with your wallet.

microstrip · Sep 5, 2011

Bruce B said:
HDtracks is a distributor. They do not have the tools to check these files as they come in. That's why they rely on us, Alan and ? to check the files before they are uploaded. We get in hundreds of tracks per/day. We can not check every single track. We have found many times a label will included hi-rez as well as upsampled tracks on one album. It takes about an hour to rip a disc or transfer a tape, cut the file into individual tracks and put in track names/markers.
For a lot of the discs, we have to do sample rate conversions. That takes another 15-20min.
We use Sequoia and Sound Forge to check for spectral analysis. To load a complete album in, render the file and check each individual track, takes another 10min per album.
Once all the files have been collated, then they have to turn all the album notes into pdf files.
I'm not trying to make excuses for HDtracks. They try to get the files to the consumer as quickly as they can.
David and others from HDtracks do read these fora. They are well aware of what is being said about them. I have many times had to answer to these posts from AA, CA, AVS and others. They spend 80% of their time on the phone with customers that can't even get their machines to even play the files. Think of what nightmare that is fielding calls trying to walk customers through their setup and finding that one box isn't checked in their software or... you name it.
This is just one customer in our day to day work environment. Believe me, I'm not getting paid to post here or write other articles.

I hope soon or later some one writes and sells some software that quickly analyzes the files and just says if they are real HiRez or up-sampled files - like an antivirus program.

References to the The Hifi News reports are spreading in many countries audio magazines and many time they are incorrectly made, creating doubts in the market for HiRez.

c1ferrari · Sep 5, 2011

Informative post, Bruce...thanks.

amirm · Sep 5, 2011

microstrip said:
I hope soon or later some one writes and sells some software that quickly analyzes the files and just says if they are real HiRez or up-sampled files - like an antivirus program.

This is fairly straightforward to do. Bruce, let me know if there is interest in this type of automated tool. It may not catch all but might catch many and flag the others. I know a number of people who could write such a software in a week or so. They would need to get compensated for it but I would think a bit of money spent on a tool is worth a lot in avoiding this kind of embarrassing situations. And give them a competitive advantage.

wgscott · Sep 5, 2011

The code exists and is open-source. It is used by electron microscopists to find resolution. Briefly, it finds the inflection point of the steepest part of the curve with negative slope (from say 15kHz to whatever the claimed upper bound is). So all you would have to do is perform an fft, generate the plot, take the derivative, and find the inflection point. When that number comes out to about 20kHz, combined with a steep slope. it flags a file and you can go back and inspect it manually.

If the Kodami spectrum is typical of another type of upsampling, presumably this could be identificed computationally because there is an approximate mirror symmetry in the spectrum reflected through a line at 0.5*(Nyquist frequency). This could be identified by defining a correlation function that matches the bottom half of the spectrum with the inverse of the top half.

c1ferrari · Sep 5, 2011

I knew those three quarters

wgscott said:
Briefly, it finds the inflection point of the steepest part of the curve with negative slope (from say 15kHz to whatever the claimed upper bound is). So all you would have to do is perform an fft, generate the plot, take the derivative, and find the inflection point. When that number comes out to about 20kHz, combined with a steep slope. it flags a file and you can go back and inspect it manually.

of calculus would come in handy

Good stuff, wgscott

thestewman · Sep 6, 2011

I thought i would jump in here and comment as a HD Tracks customer. I have downloaded many Hi-Rez files from HD tracks. You do not need to analyze the files. Just play them back and you can clearly hear that they are not Hi-Rez and you can tell that many are Low-Rez Redbook copies. I find it is regularly occurring mostly with the Rock and Roll groups. The Download manager functions correctly maybe 80% of the time and I have yet to be able to receive the discounts offered as their software regularly disregards the correctly inputted data.
They refuse to refund your money and will offer you credits for another purchase if you hound them with several emails.
Very disheartening. Could it be they have found a money generating scheme that they thought no one would discover ?
Maybe you remember the Norah Jones Blue Note SACD that was just a Redbook transferred to SACD and pawned off to the public.
They put the money in the bank and never looked back.
The right thing is for HD Tracks to step up and make this right to its past users. We'll see if they are man enough to admit there might have been a problem and correct it with their users. I'll be waiting for their response.

Stew

rbbert · Sep 6, 2011

I also am a regular HDTracks customer, and have found their customer service to be inconsistent. I was given a free download after I dl'ed a 24/44.1 fileset that was listed as 24/96 on their site. I was one of the first complainers about Steely Dan's "Gaucho", which Bruce B showed on this site to be almost certainly upcomverted 24/44.1, but HDTracks never acknowledged that. I have been quite happy with most of their downloads, but I stick to jazz and classical almost exclusively. The timings of songs and albums on their web site are very unreliable. I must admit that due to their spotty record I have taken to getting some of their product off of "unofficial" torrent trackers.

wgscott · Sep 6, 2011

I've also gotten some really good stuff from HDtracks.

I think we as a community are far better off focusing our efforts at getting them to improve quality control than we are having a bitch-fest. The most helpful thing to do is get a list together of the most unambiguously problematic albums, and encourage them to take a good hard look. I for one would much rather encourage them to do the right thing than to see them go out of business.

BTW, the spectral plots of what they have look identical to what is on the True Stories DVD-A (Ted_B figured this out and posted it at CA). If so, that at least solves the mystery of where the files came from, and why they differ from what Bruce has.

Orb · Sep 6, 2011

amirm said:
This is fairly straightforward to do. Bruce, let me know if there is interest in this type of automated tool. It may not catch all but might catch many and flag the others. I know a number of people who could write such a software in a week or so. They would need to get compensated for it but I would think a bit of money spent on a tool is worth a lot in avoiding this kind of embarrassing situations. And give them a competitive advantage.

Would be nice if it provides the average and peak spectrum.
BTW I emailed Keith Howard to see if he would be able to share his own software that does this analysis (along with the 24bit check) but unfortunately it is not in a publishable state, and no ETA on whether it will be in the future for public.
I think he should make himself less busy

Joys of being very good at his job I would say.
Anyway hope you have more luck.

Cheers
Orb

thestewman · Sep 6, 2011

I agree with the first two parts of your response. But, HD Tracks is not responsive and when you attempt to share the problem with them their customer service people either do not respond or after several queries finally then offer a credit toward an additional purchase. There is never an attempt to rectify the problem and they continue to sell the defective HiRez files so what does this tell you ? Management does not care, or management is being kept in the dark ? Apparently they want to continue to be their own worst enemy. Word is going to spread about the HiRez files not being what the purport them to be. How can they take Redbook files or DVD-A files and offer them as HiRez ?
I do not currently have the ability to analyze the files as you and a few others but I can definitely hear that the files do not sound HiRez.
I get better playback results by ripping my own Redbook CDs with EAC and playing those back as Wav or FLAC.
Maybe what it will take is for HD Tracks to be reported to the States Attorney Generals office and a few lawsuits.
You and everyone else who has been dealing with them notice they are not responding.

Jeff Fritz · Sep 6, 2011

Our S. Andrea Sundaram recently wrote an article on this as well:

http://soundstage.com/index.php?opt...-rez-or-not&catid=69:sound-reasoning&Itemid=5

thestewman · Sep 6, 2011

Thank you for that information. And I see I am only one of many. Here is a post from another site.

"I questioned their release of Derek & the Dominoes' Layla on their facebook page and they deleted the post. After I reposted it I was banned. I'm left with no alternative but to conclude that these people know they're peddling crap, they just don't give a damn. No way I'd support them going forward, not unless they were prepared to attest to every release truly being from the master recording and are prepared to post the waveform and DR info so I can decide for myself whether the release is something worth paying for."

audioguy · Sep 6, 2011

wgscott;65898I think we as a community are [I said:
far[/I] better off focusing our efforts at getting them to improve quality control than we are having a bitch-fest. .

But if enough people complain and/or quit buying then maybe they will get the hint and improve the quality. Based upon their insistence that there is not a problem suggests a "bitch fest" may be a good idea.

What I think bothers me the most is their denial (through the standard response that I and others have received) and their refusal to admit their just might be a problem and make it good to those who have paid for high rez and gotten something different. This is a HUGE opportunity for them to either create great customer will OR further **** off more customers.

Kippyy · Sep 6, 2011

As I started this thread, I thought it was time to add my thoughts. I'm a veterinarian. If I discovered that medications I was charging my clients for and administering to my patients were somehow defective/faulty or placebo(its less costly to dispense no drug than actual drug), my response would be profoundly different than the response of HD Tracks and even Bruce B. This is an issue of credibility and trust. Although I appreciate that no one is living or dying as a result of music file quality, the cornerstone of a "profession" is self-regulation and the public's assurance of quality. Without this, any business is apt to be viewed no differently than a local car mechanic. When my car dealer tells me I need a new "Johnson rod", I cant run an Audacity graph to discern if I;m getting the truth. And I have no idea what a "Johnson rod" is.
Once trust and credibility are damaged, its very difficult to regain this. Unfortunately for myself and many other music lovers, HD Tracks has work to do to regain this. I'm surprised by Bruce's response upthread, in that he doesn't seem to acknowledge that his own credibility is damaged if/when HD Tracks sells watered-down files that he supplies as proper.

Bruce B · Sep 6, 2011

Kippyy said:
I'm surprised by Bruce's response upthread, in that he doesn't seem to acknowledge that his own credibility is damaged if/when HD Tracks sells watered-down files that he supplies as proper.

And how is that? I don't supply the material... the labels do. I just check them to see if they are legit and tell HDtracks. What they do with this information has no bearing on me. I think my credibility would come into question if I just denied everything or stood silent instead of posting graphs and trying to help the consumer better understand what is going on.

I even consulted on the article that Jeff mentions above as well as many others. When I see that someone is having a problem with a file, even if we did not supply it to HDtracks, I have purchased many downloads out of my own pocket to check for consumers.

wgscott · Sep 6, 2011

I hope no one minds if I ask a really naive question: How does this work?

I have a vague idea someone sings into a microphone and that gets recorded, either analogue or digitally. Then what happens eventually is I can purchase a digital file (either on a CD, or as a download). I really haven't a clue as to what happens between the recording and the purchase and download from (for example) HD tracks? Who is involved with what? What does HDtracks do other than run a web server that allows me to purchase downloads, and catalogue the information? Where do they get the files? Does Bruce sell them the file, inspect the files they purchased from the recording studio, or what?

I have absolutely no clue whatsoever how the music industry works and what processes are involved in converting a recording to a downloadable file.

A short summary is fine. I realize people could probably write books on this. An outline or overview is more than enough.

Bruce B · Sep 6, 2011

wgscott said:
I have a vague idea someone sings into a microphone and that gets recorded, either analogue or digitally. Then what happens eventually is I can purchase a digital file (either on a CD, or as a download). I really haven't a clue as to what happens between the recording and the purchase and download from (for example) HD tracks? Who is involved with what? What does HDtracks do other than run a web server that allows me to purchase downloads, and catalogue the information? Where do they get the files? Does Bruce sell them the file, inspect the files they purchased from the recording studio, or what?

I have absolutely no clue whatsoever how the music industry works and what processes are involved in converting a recording to a downloadable file.

A short summary is fine. I realize people could probably write books on this. An outline or overview is more than enough.

Short answer: 3 steps

Recording - artists sing/play into mics and gets recorded
Mixing - all of the parts come together and get balanced
Mastering - all of the 2-track mixdowns are then assembled into a coherent album and the label gets sent the files, DDP master, laquer or ??
You can read more about mastering HERE

HDtracks licenses the titles from the labels. (say $10k for 10k downloads) The labels send whatever they can get a hold of, be it tape, SACD, digital file or whatever.
HDtracks send to a 3rd party vendor (me and others) to turn into a downloadable format. We then check the file to see what it sounds like, do any conversions or whatever, attach metadata and send it back to them for them to put up on their servers.

wgscott · Sep 6, 2011

OK, thanks. I appreciate the summary.

When is Hi-Res not really Hi-Res?

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