Thanks Lee
If one comes your way temporarily that would be great, would be good to know for all of us looking to go the laptop route
Cheers
Orb
The Digital Journey: Assembling a Computer-Based Music Server for Dummies
- Thread starter RBFC
- Start date
If one comes your way temporarily that would be great, would be good to know for all of us looking to go the laptop route
Cheers
Orb
Pure Music plays native rates without these problems and at substantially less than Amarra. And while I remain totally unconvinced that jitter is an audible problem under normal listening conditions, even when running quality implementations of toslink, we also have firewire and usb as digital output choices from Macs.
I've run firewire and usb DACs (albeit on PC) and done extensive comparisons - the differences come from the DAC and output stage rather than the computer interface. Any differences remain whether the DAC is run with firewire/USB or AES inputs - so I don't think that firewire or USB should be a primary concern.
FWIW my 2cents worth.
FWIW my 2cents worth.
The DACs that were in the comparison were the Weiss Minerva and DAC202 for firewire, the M2Tech Young and the APL DAC-S. As an interface, I used the Weiss INT202 (firewire) and the M2Tech EVO (USB) to AES/EBU for the comparison. I haven't got my hands on the Audiophileo yet - I've heard good things about that one too.
Even with something as simple as the EMu 0404 USB, the interface makes less of a difference than the DAC and output stage.
Even with something as simple as the EMu 0404 USB, the interface makes less of a difference than the DAC and output stage.
Gary,
but did you also experience the clicking effect?
Anyway as I mentioned I am not entirely convinced if Firewire would improve on it for that reason as in my experience with VOIP clicking can be related to clock drift, so potentially it may be USB-driver-isochronous (if used).
Still from an engineering perspective and trouble shooting it makes sense to compare both the USB and Firewire, then if there is no clicking on the latter interface it could then be speculated if it relates to processor/bridge/cpu cycles/data rate transfer problem.
And yeah I am wondering if the clicking happens for both Asynch and isochronous USB (Vincent asks about asynch experience), my gut feeling is the asynch "should" be fine, if the issue is not software-architecture-driver related.
A lot of people use Amarra at the higher rates and never mentioned the clicking, but thats not to say it isnt there.
Cheers
Orb
but did you also experience the clicking effect?
Anyway as I mentioned I am not entirely convinced if Firewire would improve on it for that reason as in my experience with VOIP clicking can be related to clock drift, so potentially it may be USB-driver-isochronous (if used).
Still from an engineering perspective and trouble shooting it makes sense to compare both the USB and Firewire, then if there is no clicking on the latter interface it could then be speculated if it relates to processor/bridge/cpu cycles/data rate transfer problem.
And yeah I am wondering if the clicking happens for both Asynch and isochronous USB (Vincent asks about asynch experience), my gut feeling is the asynch "should" be fine, if the issue is not software-architecture-driver related.
A lot of people use Amarra at the higher rates and never mentioned the clicking, but thats not to say it isnt there.
Cheers
Orb
Here's a link to the discussion on Computer Audiophile:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Amarra-V21-Constant-Clicking-Popping-Sound
Lee
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Amarra-V21-Constant-Clicking-Popping-Sound
Lee
Orb,
It might be a Mac/Amarra thing as I've never encountered any clicking with PC/Windows. On the PC, I've never seen CPU go above 10% on any of my music servers.
Gary
It might be a Mac/Amarra thing as I've never encountered any clicking with PC/Windows. On the PC, I've never seen CPU go above 10% on any of my music servers.
Gary
Hi there
Something relevant to diagnosis of pops and ticks on Windows:
Most of the pops and ticks are caused by a rogue device causing peaks in system latency. For PC there is a very useful and free diagnostic software program called DPC Latency Checker available from http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml.
Basically what happens (in simple language) is that the device introduces latency into the process that sends audio from memory to whatever output you are using such as USB or FW. This can cause gaps in playback since the audio gets stuck behind a request from another device.
A lot of devices in a computer have higher priority or kernel level access and so their requests get processed first.
I have used the program on numerous occasions to diagnose problems. For example on my Dell laptop that I use for acoustical measurements I have to disable the wireless card otherwise I get latency problems.
You can have pops and ticks even with very low CPU utilization if the DPC latency is poor.
I don't know enough about the Mac OSX architecture to know if there are similar issues with that operating system.
Something relevant to diagnosis of pops and ticks on Windows:
Most of the pops and ticks are caused by a rogue device causing peaks in system latency. For PC there is a very useful and free diagnostic software program called DPC Latency Checker available from http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml.
Basically what happens (in simple language) is that the device introduces latency into the process that sends audio from memory to whatever output you are using such as USB or FW. This can cause gaps in playback since the audio gets stuck behind a request from another device.
A lot of devices in a computer have higher priority or kernel level access and so their requests get processed first.
I have used the program on numerous occasions to diagnose problems. For example on my Dell laptop that I use for acoustical measurements I have to disable the wireless card otherwise I get latency problems.
You can have pops and ticks even with very low CPU utilization if the DPC latency is poor.
I don't know enough about the Mac OSX architecture to know if there are similar issues with that operating system.
Thanks, Nyal. That was extremely useful.
I guess that for multi-purpose machines like your Dell laptop, this is something definitely to watch out for. I'll hope that for a dedicated music server, there will be no rogue devices. That may be why on my work laptop, a large buffer in Foobar sounds better, while on my dedicated music server, a small buffer sounds better???
I guess that for multi-purpose machines like your Dell laptop, this is something definitely to watch out for. I'll hope that for a dedicated music server, there will be no rogue devices. That may be why on my work laptop, a large buffer in Foobar sounds better, while on my dedicated music server, a small buffer sounds better???
I actually think it would extend to a dedicated music server, at least one that the end consumer assembles from off the shelf parts, since even on that there may be unintended devices such as wireless adaptors or LAN adaptors causing the issues. One would hope that a server that is bought from a company as a dedicated audio server would have had this checked out and would arrive at the consumer with good DPC latency performance.
As I stated before, the clicking stopped completely when I minimized the windows of the Amarra player. Apparently, the active meter display takes a lot of CPU to run. My Mach2 Music MacMini server has undergone extensive modifications to reduce unwanted background processes from interfering with the primary function of being a music player.
Lee
Lee
Thanks for the link Lee, very interesting.
I notice the initial poster was using a Weiss Int202 (firewire) so it comes back to application layer/resources as you mention and USB CPU utilisation is not part of the issue.
Interesting they also use an Apple Mac mini, wonder if this happens with their pro models as well - but that does not help you and only helps to narrow down the extent and type of issue specifically around the application layer/resources including CPU utlisation.
Thanks again
Orb
Hi Lee
I found your experience with the setup of your digital system using a Mac and Krell really interesting. Since I own a Krell S1200 too, I followed the same thinking you did and that was to utilise the DAC in the Krell S1200. I have compared My Esoteric CD player (DV50) DAC to the Krell DAC, and found the Krell DAC much fuller, warmer and more definition in the bass. I actually tried the Olive which sounded good, but the remote interface was clumsy. So I bought the Bryston BDP-1 (Mac mini too complicated for me) which is outstanding and also connects to the Mpod remote app. For what its worth I also hooked up the Bryston BDA -1 DAC to the Bryston BDP-1 and fed the analogue signal through the Krell preamp section. However after some comparisons and AB teststing I still preferred the Krell DAC which is just outstanding. So although using the Krell DAC via the coax out from the Bryston is excellent, I too found the issue with Krell's inability to play higher than 24/96 through the coax. I called them and their answer was to use the HDMI cable input which I cannot with the Bryston. So I found your comment that - "I later discovered that the Krell wouldn't accept 24/192 via its coaxial inputs (they are releasing updates to correct this)" - of great interest. Has there been any software upgrade for the Krell? I am not optimistic, but you never know...... BTW the hi res downloads from HD Tracks are great for digital playback.
Howard Ipp
I found your experience with the setup of your digital system using a Mac and Krell really interesting. Since I own a Krell S1200 too, I followed the same thinking you did and that was to utilise the DAC in the Krell S1200. I have compared My Esoteric CD player (DV50) DAC to the Krell DAC, and found the Krell DAC much fuller, warmer and more definition in the bass. I actually tried the Olive which sounded good, but the remote interface was clumsy. So I bought the Bryston BDP-1 (Mac mini too complicated for me) which is outstanding and also connects to the Mpod remote app. For what its worth I also hooked up the Bryston BDA -1 DAC to the Bryston BDP-1 and fed the analogue signal through the Krell preamp section. However after some comparisons and AB teststing I still preferred the Krell DAC which is just outstanding. So although using the Krell DAC via the coax out from the Bryston is excellent, I too found the issue with Krell's inability to play higher than 24/96 through the coax. I called them and their answer was to use the HDMI cable input which I cannot with the Bryston. So I found your comment that - "I later discovered that the Krell wouldn't accept 24/192 via its coaxial inputs (they are releasing updates to correct this)" - of great interest. Has there been any software upgrade for the Krell? I am not optimistic, but you never know...... BTW the hi res downloads from HD Tracks are great for digital playback.
Howard Ipp
Welcome to WBF, Howard!
The Krell S-1200 (at least mine did, which shipped in Jan 2011) requires a software update that allows the unit to accept 24/192 from MacIntosh computers. Something in the "handshake", I imagine. PC-based sources do not have that problem, from what I've been told.
Krell is currently working on an update to allow its coaxial inputs to handle 24/192 signals. I will certainly post here when I get news of its availability.
COMPARISONS:
HDMI into Krell from MacMini VS. MacMini > USB > Calyx Audio DAC24/192 > Purist XLR > Krell B1 input jacks
Several of us listened to this comparison, and universally preferred the outboard DAC method. Regardless of who did the switching, or what was playing, this was the constant sentiment. The Calyx DAC (review coming soon) uses the same ESS Sabre DAC chip that the Krell does, so there is a similarity to the sound. The external DAC sounded more harmonically complete and had better bass (levels matched closely, but probably not perfectly). The difference was large enough for all of us to consider it a "no-brainer" in my system. Your setup may or may not demonstrate this same behavior.
HDMI VS. Coaxial into Krell with CD transport
Here, we all preferred the HDMI connection. The coaxial input sounded bloated and showed less detail. Instruments, from lute to trumpet, sounded more realistic via HDMI to us. I was using the coaxial output of the Denon 3800 Blu-ray player and its HDMI output for the comparison. I don't own a "high-end" CD transport. It's possible that the software update for the coaxial inputs may change the sonic presentation, and I'll certainly revisit the comparison when I install the update.
I hope these brief comments were of some help.
Lee
The Krell S-1200 (at least mine did, which shipped in Jan 2011) requires a software update that allows the unit to accept 24/192 from MacIntosh computers. Something in the "handshake", I imagine. PC-based sources do not have that problem, from what I've been told.
Krell is currently working on an update to allow its coaxial inputs to handle 24/192 signals. I will certainly post here when I get news of its availability.
COMPARISONS:
HDMI into Krell from MacMini VS. MacMini > USB > Calyx Audio DAC24/192 > Purist XLR > Krell B1 input jacks
Several of us listened to this comparison, and universally preferred the outboard DAC method. Regardless of who did the switching, or what was playing, this was the constant sentiment. The Calyx DAC (review coming soon) uses the same ESS Sabre DAC chip that the Krell does, so there is a similarity to the sound. The external DAC sounded more harmonically complete and had better bass (levels matched closely, but probably not perfectly). The difference was large enough for all of us to consider it a "no-brainer" in my system. Your setup may or may not demonstrate this same behavior.
HDMI VS. Coaxial into Krell with CD transport
Here, we all preferred the HDMI connection. The coaxial input sounded bloated and showed less detail. Instruments, from lute to trumpet, sounded more realistic via HDMI to us. I was using the coaxial output of the Denon 3800 Blu-ray player and its HDMI output for the comparison. I don't own a "high-end" CD transport. It's possible that the software update for the coaxial inputs may change the sonic presentation, and I'll certainly revisit the comparison when I install the update.
I hope these brief comments were of some help.
Lee
For what it's worth, I'm fairly over the hump on the learning curve for using the Mac computer for audio playback/storage. I've now got about 1/2 TB on my drive, and have left room for the inevitable accumulation of high-res files in the near future (salivating).
Don't be intimidated, if I can do it, you can too. That's why I detailed the struggle, as I was coming from a near-illiterate position on computers, etc. There is a wealth of help here, and some great people providing it. For that, I am deeply grateful.
Lee
Don't be intimidated, if I can do it, you can too. That's why I detailed the struggle, as I was coming from a near-illiterate position on computers, etc. There is a wealth of help here, and some great people providing it. For that, I am deeply grateful.
Lee
Thanks Lee. Very helpful info.
I will keep my eye on your posting for that Krell COAX upgrade!
Howard
I will keep my eye on your posting for that Krell COAX upgrade!
Howard
The updates are installed via the rs232 port on the Krell, and your dealer will need a computer that can handle the update file AND adapt to the rs232 port. I can give you the phone number of my local dealer who has the right setup to accomplish the hookup if you need it. They can email the details to your dealer if necessary.
Lee
Lee
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