Interest in New Transports

microstrip said:

In this case power will be over 3400W if the load is 2 ohms. When considering clipping most people only thing about the voltage, but using current low impedance loudspeakers, some having high phase impedance angles, many amplifiers effectively clip due to current limitation much before the voltage clip is reached.

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Correct, I took a very simplistic model. The variance in loudness perceived by Amir could have been due to the more powerful amplifiers being able to drive the loudspeakers better where their impedance dips, and the smaller amplifiers compressing and clipping. Nevertheless, the overall loudness with different amplifiers with the same voltage gain should not have been so far different that the more powerful amp would shake the tiles off the ceiling. Amir's showroom is pretty well built.

The Rotels and Arcams are not really in the same league as say the Audio Research LS26 (definitely nowhere near LS27) and a lot behind the SOTA preamps, that includes the new ML.
Personally I think the new ML preamp is a pretty good price, relative to other high end preamps from Audio Research/McIntosh/CJ/Ayre/etc.

I managed to hear quite a lot of the models from Arcam and Rotel over the years due to many dealers selling them here in the UK.
Coming back to transports Amir.
I am one of those who still very interested in high end CD players and transports and came to the following POV for myself.
The bespoke high end 2-3+ box solutions will be around for quite a long where customers look to get the most from one manufacturer that provides a multitude of functionality but only applicable with matching manufacturing DAC-external clock-etc, examples of this are those who go dCS and Esoteric high end.
I feel these will be around for awhile and may be the only long term upper high end true dedicated transports on sale.

Away from these, IMO the most ideal solution for me was a high quality transport or CD that includes both digital XLR/RCA (possibly BNC instead of XLR or RCA) outputs and with exacting-durable engineering design.
I was interested in either the Philips Pro2 or upper Esoteric mechansisms, furthermore if using in a small room I want these players-transports to be utterly silent mechanically, and be this way for many years without wear and tear deteriating their performance (appreciate some aspects do need to be replaced over years).

For transport I am more interested in a mid-upper player/transport when combined with a high end DAC, possibly as an example the Audio Research CD5 or those with its spec-build around that price.
If not going with an external DAC, then I would happily consider a player in the £9k to £11k bracket but critically this must exceed current extended listening preferences enjoyment in terms of sound, while also meeting the above criteria in terms of engineering-durability-etc.
I am still dubious about the engineering-durability quality of the optical ROM reader found in more players these days, which makes me shy away from them, especially when considering used a lot over the years and wear and tear.
I appreciate quite a few here would disagree with my last statement and I can understand these mech's multi-read benefits, but personally that benefit weighs lower due to long term uncertainty of the mech durability-mechanical noise-etc, and possibly for others who also go the route I did and purchased an expensive player-transport.
The proven engineering history that is behind the Pro2 and Esoteric upper mechs definitely is a factor.

IMO, the narrative for using a good CD player instead of a true dedicated transport is the added flexibility if changing products in the future, while importantly providing an enjoyable sound if the external DAC fails so at least I can still play my music without waiting for a replacement-repairs.
I went with an expensive dedicated transport using Philips Pro2 mech (their high end player is eye watering price - Metronome), but then I did not know about the availability of the Audio Research CD5 over here that seems to meet all my requirements, ah well

Hope this helps
Cheers.
Orb

amirm said:

What surprised me was how audible its increased distortion was to everyone concerned. My best test is my brother who is not an audiophile. When he cringes, I know something is wrong .

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In the same vein is my wife, who has trouble with violins. Her father was first violin in the local orchestra, and practised long and hard at home, and there was some conflict of personalities in the mix. So now she is intensely sensitive to the tone of that instrument, and it has to be absolutely spot on for her to be comfortable with the sound. As an example, I just posted some examples of live music we had gone to recently, and she complained strongly after the performances, about the screetchiness of the real violins!

Frank

amirm said:

(...) While this is a high-end product, I thought this was a decent pre-amp, having bought it for $1,000 some 10 years ago. Either we are spoiled by the clean sound we are getting with the direct connect or this pre-amp isn't nearly as good as I thought it was. Anyone else with experience with it?

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It is curious that people are much less prepared to accept the importance of the preamplifier than that of the amplifier. A friend of mine owns an all Rotel system and it sounds very nice - not true high-end, but a decent sound, full bodied but lacking some "finesse".

Unless the Rotel is faulty, it will not "distort" the sound. However the synergy of the system is very poor and the high transparency of the Mark Levinson and renaming system will show some nasty characteristics of the Rotel that would have been masked in a system using the Rotel amplifier and adequate speakers.

As I said, I have no experience with the news ML series. But the old ones really liked their own matching preamplifiers. Digging further, I remember my ML28 preamplifier. It sounded thin and "electronic" with most amplifiers, but was really good with the ML29 amplifier. In some aspects the ML28/ML29 combo was more rewarding than the ML28/ML23.5.

My bet is that when you get the matching ML preamplifier you will have peace and an excellent sound ...

BTW, I recently learned that my old ML23.5 had all the electrolytic capacitors replaced with new improved ones and is playing better than ever.

Coming back to high-end ransports...i now have the opportunity to buy a s/hand Zanden 2000P or a DCS SCarlatti...for my existing Zanden 5000Sig DAC. Your advice is welcome!!!!
My options/thoughts: 1) go with Scarlatti and get some optionality on higher-rez. plus its an esoteric transport...so also should be pretty good even for 16/44.1 2) go with Zanden since its made for my DAC...and since the DAC only does 16/44.1...optionality on the DCS transport aint worth much since i do not anticipate upgrading DAC for years to come since i find the sound so good, i dont care to keep upgrading and upgrading. 3) forget both. Buy server whenever the day comes when they are more plug and play and can legitimately compete on 16/44.1 with these transports. 4) forget both, and there actually is a server that will compete with either or both of these transports...which would be??? Mac Mini? Sooloos Control 15??? (NB: in 25 years, i have had only 3 systems...this is my third, and i tend to keep my systems for roughly 8-10 years on average before embarking on major upgrade/evolution to the next level). thanks for your thoughts!!! (note: i am not focused on "convenience"...only quality of transmission of the bits/bytes to my 16/44.1 Zanden DAC. thanks!

lloydelee21 said:

Coming back to high-end ransports...i now have the opportunity to buy a s/hand Zanden 2000P or a DCS SCarlatti...for my existing Zanden 5000Sig DAC. Your advice is welcome!!!! (...)

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I have no direct experience with the Zandem 5000Sig DAC or the 2000P, but as you have a preamplifier I have owned and enjoyed a lot (the cj ACT2) I was interested by your post. Specially as one of the best digital sounds I have listened to included a DCS top system connected to an ACT2.
But re-reading your post I found you already own the 5000Sig. I can not think of any reason to connect a DCS Scarlatti transport to the Zanden, and I know a few why I would prefer the 2000p. Could you tell us why you are considering such pairing?

BTW, on the top of my list of equipment that I should never have sold you will find a Forsell air bearing CD transport mk3.

I heard the 512 at my local dealer in Montreal (Codell) and the sound is amazing...the silence between each note is unreal....wish they had put a USB port to use the internal DAC for computer audio...think the new Esoteric k-01 does that and Wadia also...

microstrip said:

I have no direct experience with the Zandem 5000Sig DAC or the 2000P, but as you have a preamplifier I have owned and enjoyed a lot (the cj ACT2) I was interested by your post. Specially as one of the best digital sounds I have listened to included a DCS top system connected to an ACT2.
But re-reading your post I found you already own the 5000Sig. I can not think of any reason to connect a DCS Scarlatti transport to the Zanden, and I know a few why I would prefer the 2000p. Could you tell us why you are considering such pairing?

BTW, on the top of my list of equipment that I should never have sold you will find a Forsell air bearing CD transport mk3.

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Hi Microstrip. Thanks for jumping in here. i really respect your opinions in the past. the reason is simple...i am looking for quality sounds. Convenience of servers is not a big factor for me. And the Scarlatti transport and Zanden transport are both s/hand from reliable sources. that is the primary reason...they are good components and at a reasonable price. The key in my mind is: 1) the Zanden DAC is 16/44.1 anyway so i am never going to be doing hi-rez (unless i buy new DAC which wont be for a while)...2) the Transport either better be superb quality (and comparably priced to super-high end server set up with all the necessary tweaks...or there is no point. in this case, i think the 2 transports probably still cost more...but they are truly "plug n play" and for 16/44.1 i am confident the sound is quite SOTA. the only question is which transport and also whether there are servers which already match them. i have not found any...qsonix, chord, that even come close to Krell 505/ARC 5 let alone high end Esoteric or Kalista...the key is i have not heard Scarlatti or Zanden...and in the case of Zanden i probably have to buy "blind".

Hi Lloyd,
just as a quick response (will try to post more later in the weekend).
If you are not using the same manufacturer for transport and DAC, then I am not necessarily convinced the need to go with the upper model dCS or dedicated transport such from Esoteric.
My reasoning is that both these products combine some very advanced functionality that you will never use as it is proprietary and linked to their own component integration; that is transport - clock - upsampler - DAC system.

However as you keep your system for a reasonable amount of time, a possible consideration is how much usage there will be over say 5+ years, also is mechanical noise from the CD spinning an issue from your listening position.
We know that the Philips Pro2 and above midrange Esoteric mechanisms are reliable and well engineered.
I notice you mention Chord, does this mean you have tried the Chord Blu transport in your system?

If future paths are not a consideration for discs, meaning capability to play SACD,Blu-ray audio,etc, and you intend to stick with only standard CD music, then my preference would possibly be a good machine that uses the Philips Pro2 such as Audio Research CD5 - this has I think importantly digital XLR output along with SPDIF for transport.

Unsure how reliable -well engineered the mechanisms are with some of the CD or DVD Rom drives, but their advantage is theoritically superior read performance as they can do multiple reads and buffer-reclock before passing the data, the best of those combine advanced buffering such as the PS Audio transport, but long term reliability-noise-engineering-etc is possibly an unknown compared to Philips/Esoteric drives.

Thats all for now but hope it helps.
Cheers
Orb

Hi Orb, i look forward to reading more from you tomorrow! Meanwhile, to address some of your initial advice: 1) i own an oppo 83...figuring that it was a good interim solution. it plays all formats including blu ray music, and when i get my "final" transport or server, i can still use it to play movies. 2) so whether i decide server is better quality than the SOTA transports for 16/44.1, or vice versa, i can still use th eoppo for playing movies. 3) i believe the Zanden does use a proprietary link (i2s) so i suppose to your point about proprietary uses, that favors using the Zanden transport since i hav ethe DAC...additionally, the Zanden is a Pro2-based mechanism. i will give it some more thought, and as i said, i look forward to reading more from you tomorrow !

lloydelee21 said:

(...) The key in my mind is: 1) the Zanden DAC is 16/44.1 anyway so i am never going to be doing hi-rez (unless i buy new DAC which wont be for a while)...2) the Transport either better be superb quality (and comparably priced to super-high end server set up with all the necessary tweaks...or there is no point. in this case, i think the 2 transports probably still cost more...but they are truly "plug n play" and for 16/44.1 i am confident the sound is quite SOTA. the only question is which transport and also whether there are servers which already match them. i have not found any...qsonix, chord, that even come close to Krell 505/ARC 5 let alone high end Esoteric or Kalista...the key is i have not heard Scarlatti or Zanden...and in the case of Zanden i probably have to buy "blind".

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I am sure that most people will disagree with me, , but I have found in the past that the CD transport has more importance than the DAC in most high-end digital systems. My first experiment with serious (expensive) digital gear was with the Mark Levinson units. At that time, the distributor in our country visited a friend of mine with two setups - a ML31-ML30 and a Madrigal (the ML for poor people... ) Proceed PDT - PDP. The big system was really much better than the Madrigal, but friend did not want to spend the full amount and decided to listen to the Madrigal PDT (transport) with the ML30 (dac). As the other two pieces were also there we also decided to connect them - the impressive ML31 with the cheap PDP dac. To our great surprise, this system sounded fundamentally better than the other. The ML30 had better bass, more detailed and nicer highs, but the music was much more enjoyable with the ML31 - voices were more alive, music flowed much better, soundstage was more "solid".

Unhappily I did not have the resources to buy the ML31, but auditioning several high end transports (Krell MD10, Wadia) only confirmed my belief. Some years later, when the Forsell air transport and DAC were presented I could not resist. The DAC was a little soft in the bass, but the system was really good. From that moment on I started enjoying digital, giving up analog during a some periods. One thing was curious - all DACs I tried with the air transport got a "Forsell smell" as we said. Although I tried other options, I always returned to the Forsell transport, only the tubed ARC CD7 could make me part with it.

If you are as lazy as me concerning music servers and enjoy buying new music regularly (CDs) , IMHO you should buy the Zandem transport. I just did a quick search using google, and surely not all the people we say wonderful things about it are fools. As usual, when looking for CD transports, you should check before buying if the laser and/or mechanism for this player are easily available for service.

BTW, I have hosted for a few days the Metronome Kalista - better than my current CD8, but too expensive for me.

Some thoughts... Transports and all...

The most important thing in a CD player or BD player is the accuracy of the reading from the lens.
...Right down to the pits!

But those days are counted now with music servers!

Amir, there will be always physical disc players and physical medias as the population of our planet keeps growing, and money can still be made!
Also, some people will always be behind technologically speaking.
It's the nature of Man & Woman to be diversified and make mistakes over mistakes, plus trying to be ahead and fall back behind!

You simply cannot escape destiny! And destiny comes in all flavours and degrees.
What you think is good for you and others is just that; for you and others! But not everyone!
Not because it's not good, but because ignorance and poverty do exist!

He who can communicate equally with the most intelligent and most defavorized people of our planet, possesses the richest resource of knowledge, freedom, equality, understanding, and total peace with the world! ...That is what I think anyway.

* A thousand years or so from now, teletransportation will be reality!

Has anyone heard the new QSonix Q205? According to the specs, they claim to have worked with Wadia to create audiophile grade digital output. Eletrical isolation digital output, impedance control of digital, separate power supply, EMI shielding, etc. I am going to audition one, and A/B against the best transport the dealer has (their Metronome Kalista just went out the door, so hopefully they'll still have something SOTA). Any thoughts on actually hearing it or even spec sheet are appreciated!

Bruce B said:

Yeah, I think the trend is having a DAC with a bonus included transport! Our Playback Designs MPS-5 can be used as a transport OR DAC. I think MSB has a cool "transport" as well.

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..thats pretty much how I see my wadia S7i gnsc, although it has no firewire ;-(

lucker11 said:

It's a pity, i haven't have a facebook id...

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But do you have a New Transport?

I am happily living with my Nova Physics Memory Player. Handles both cds and high res downloads.