The Cable Dialectic

garylkoh

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Hmmm... Not sure about a "diodic" effect, though dissimilar metals will cause Fermionic and thermionic effects. That should increase susceptibility to RFI if anything, but I suspect that is not the issue. Better shielding from a properly-made (soldered or whatever) ground connection is as likely a reason as any for the difference, at least to me.

There are many potential "low level noise effects" in cables, but most are far below the level at which we could possibly hear them.

I agree - we had explored it thoroughly in the cable theory thread with simulations by Amir and a LOT of discussion. Any potential noise effects, frequency response non-linearity, phase effects, etc. are all far below the level at which we could possibly hear. What I have not been able to understand is why the two cables I proposed building in the OP sounds so very different. The differences seem to be consistent in nature, but not in level with different types of systems. That is what I was hoping to explore in this dialectic.
 

DonH50

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I hate to be lazy, Gary, but are you talking low-level interconnect or speaker cables? I don't want to wade through this whole thread... I can offer some explanations for either, from the perspective of an audiophile and engineer (and musician, and father, and cowboy -- "specialization is for insects"! :) )
 

muralman1

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I agree - we had explored it thoroughly in the cable theory thread with simulations by Amir and a LOT of discussion. Any potential noise effects, frequency response non-linearity, phase effects, etc. are all far below the level at which we could possibly hear. What I have not been able to understand is why the two cables I proposed building in the OP sounds so very different. The differences seem to be consistent in nature, but not in level with different types of systems. That is what I was hoping to explore in this dialectic.

I can't disagree with you more, Gary. :) I would love to run speaker cables through here to an audience of the fine gentlemen here. They would hear a huge difference in all cables with the most different sounds evident in geometry.

Vince
 

garylkoh

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I hate to be lazy, Gary, but are you talking low-level interconnect or speaker cables? I don't want to wade through this whole thread... I can offer some explanations for either, from the perspective of an audiophile and engineer (and musician, and father, and cowboy -- "specialization is for insects"! :) )

Hi Don, with solder, I'm mainly talking about low-level interconnect. Your perspective would be greatly appreciated.
 

garylkoh

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I can't disagree with you more, Gary. :) I would love to run speaker cables through here to an audience of the fine gentlemen here. They would hear a huge difference in all cables with the most different sounds evident in geometry.

Vince

Vince, I was trying to be diplomatic. What might be a huge difference to you and to me might be minuscule to some others. I'm trying to encourage readers to build cables and listen for themselves before they pronounce us crazy.
 

fas42

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Any potential noise effects, frequency response non-linearity, phase effects, etc. are all far below the level at which we could possibly hear. What I have not been able to understand is why the two cables I proposed building in the OP sounds so very different. The differences seem to be consistent in nature, but not in level with different types of systems. That is what I was hoping to explore in this dialectic.
I'm a bit silly. I looked at the the images of the construction some time ago but it didn't properly register, the differences in construction. The results you have got so far now make perfect sense, especially in regard to the variability in level but commonality in nature between systems.

To me, nothing about linear frequency response or phase shift, all about susceptibility of systems to interference picked up by high quality antennae and similiar.

Frank
 

RogerD

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Sorry, Roger. I was not clear.

At a stretch of MY imagination, I could believe that what I hear with differences in solder joints could be due to a diodic effect on the joint with the different metals, flux, resulting in a rejection or an increase in EMI/RFI effects. However, I don't know for sure that is why I can hear a difference in solder.

Gary no problem, we misunderstood each other, thanks for the PM and continue on.
 

RogerD

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Just getting the conversation back on track to this original question, which I don't believe has been answered, I would say, yes, the way a cable is used does drop the noise floor. Except I wouldn't use the latter term, what people call noise floor is actually the low level distortion I keep muttering about; it may sound like noise in a sense, but the behaviour of the underlying mechanisms are much more closely aligned to distortion. Vince has strong experience along these lines, as have I, as well as many others.

Is the cause EMI/RFI? I am still not sure what is going on exactly, what the "scientific" explanation is; one thing I am sure of, is it that it is definitely not a simple, straightforward phenomenon.

Frank

"Noise, in a cable, can and will affect the audio frequency range and interfere with an audio signal. The most common noise, Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), affects a cable directly in the audio range. RFI presents itself as hiss, commercial radio broadcasts, intercom broadcasts, or any other radio signal broadcast in the audible range.

Another source of noise is Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Whenever electricity, i.e., an audio signal, passes through a wire, it produces inductance that creates an electromagnetic field. Because EMI manifests itself at a high frequency, it is commonly believed not to interfere with the audible range of frequencies. However, all frequencies demonstrate harmonic structures. Even if the cause of EMI is outside the audible range, the upper and lower harmonics of a given frequency often present themselves within the audible range. At the very least, EMI causes degradation of audio frequencies."

http://www.nbscables.com/info/why.html


"First, having no definite means for providing a cathode electrode with a lead wire, a large amount of nonlinear distortion (noise) is generated from an electrolyte and structural parts. This is because a signal is led out through the electrolyte which is impregnated in a separator and is 20,000 times as thick as the aluminum oxide film. "

http://www.octave-electronics.com/Parts/cap/bg_tech.shtml

I probably should start another thread for this subject,but I just wanted to shed a little light on why asked I Gary my original question. I have used both NBS & Blackgate caps for a long time,both products do drop the noise floor or low level distortion in my experience.

I'll just leave it there.
 

DonH50

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Gary, I'll think on it and get back later. Much later; I have orchestra rehearsal tonight.

RogerD, if that was toward me, I was thinking of cable self-noise and effects. RFI/EMI is very real and the degree to which it impacts a system can certainly depend upon how well the cable (in particular the shield and connectors) are designed and assembled. I did not consider that "cable noise" as it is an external source. It is, however, highly relevant to perceived and measured differences in cables in audiophile systems, and to that extent should be part of anyone's consideration when comparing cables.

Noise and distortion in caps is well-known but I am not sure relevant to this thread? I will only note that the effects in capacitors are usually orders-of-magnitude more than measured in cables.
 

andyr

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There are different configurations and types of Cat5. But Cat5e is specified as stranded, and unshielded.

Gary, all the Cat5e cable in the Belden eCatalog comes up as solid-core, not stranded.

There is also a 3rd combo using Cat5 wire that you might care to try. As you showed:
1. all the solid colour wires of 2 jackets together & all the striped wires together give you the highest 'C' and the lowest 'L'. This should give the best sound (as it has the lowest inductance, which acts to oppose current flow).
2. all 8 wires in each jacket twisted together gives you the lowest 'C' and the highest 'L'.
3. but twisting together 2 pairs from each jacket gives you intermediate values of both - which, if your amp cannot cope with the high 'C' produced by 1, may be feasible ... because it will sound better than 2 (due to its lower 'L').

Regards,

Andy
 

microstrip

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Sorry, Roger. I was not clear.

At a stretch of MY imagination, I could believe that what I hear with differences in solder joints could be due to a diodic effect on the joint with the different metals, flux, resulting in a rejection or an increase in EMI/RFI effects. However, I don't know for sure that is why I can hear a difference in solder.

An interesting point can be that due the new RHOS regulations, some european manufacturers and those wanting to sell in CE were obliged to change the solder they use to types that do not use lead. There were a few "non official" reports that some of them experienced large sound differences and had to go back to the design board. I read that the Berkeley DAC people say that they can not find a non-lead solder that sounds as good as the leaded one they use, which is why they do not have CE certification and we can not listen to them in CE. :(
 

garylkoh

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Gary, all the Cat5e cable in the Belden eCatalog comes up as solid-core, not stranded.

There is also a 3rd combo using Cat5 wire that you might care to try. As you showed:
1. all the solid colour wires of 2 jackets together & all the striped wires together give you the highest 'C' and the lowest 'L'. This should give the best sound (as it has the lowest inductance, which acts to oppose current flow).
2. all 8 wires in each jacket twisted together gives you the lowest 'C' and the highest 'L'.
3. but twisting together 2 pairs from each jacket gives you intermediate values of both - which, if your amp cannot cope with the high 'C' produced by 1, may be feasible ... because it will sound better than 2 (due to its lower 'L').

Regards,

Andy

Hi Andy,

You're probably right. I did these experiments with mainly Cat5 solid core, and Cat5e stranded, and preferred the sound of Cat5e stranded.

There are many, many combos using the Cat5 wire. The two I suggested was the two extremes, highest C (therefore lowest L) and highest L (and therefore lowest C).

There are many ways to get intermediate results which may sound better - but as far as I know, no one on the forum has actually built these and listened to them.

The way you mentioned - twisting together 2 pairs from each jacket is one way. You get about 60% towards the inductance and 40% towards the capacitance depending on the insulation material on the individual strands.

Another way is to twist together three pairs from one jacket, one pair from another jacket. You can also twist together the blue and green strands and the brown/white from both jackets for positive, the white/blue strip and the white/green stripe and the orange/white from both jackets for negative. This gives you about 70% towards capacitance and 30% towards inductance.

With 8 strands in 4 twisted pairs in each Cat5 cable, the possibility is quite tremendous.
 

garylkoh

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An interesting point can be that due the new RHOS regulations, some european manufacturers and those wanting to sell in CE were obliged to change the solder they use to types that do not use lead. There were a few "non official" reports that some of them experienced large sound differences and had to go back to the design board. I read that the Berkeley DAC people say that they can not find a non-lead solder that sounds as good as the leaded one they use, which is why they do not have CE certification and we can not listen to them in CE. :(

Yes - I found that with the solder used in the crossovers.
 

andyr

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Hi Andy,

There are many, many combos using the Cat5 wire. The two I suggested was the two extremes, highest C (therefore lowest L) and highest L (and therefore lowest C).

There are many ways to get intermediate results which may sound better - but as far as I know, no one on the forum has actually built these and listened to them.

Hi Gary,

No I certainly didn't listen to them; the purpose of my experiments was to select the lowest-C option as I wanted to run 50' speaker cables in a house I had (from hifi system to study & to bedroom) and I didn't want to cause my amp to go into oscillation. :eek:

Regards,

Andy
 

DS-21

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Now you have two pairs of loudspeaker cables - one pair twisted together, and another pair where the +ve and -ve are in separate runs. With 8 strands of 26awg - they are equivalent of 8awg. More than enough for any current-hungry loudspeaker.

Without wading into the wire "sound" debate, that is not correct.

Eight strands of 26AWG wire in fact sum to ~17AWG, not 8AWG.

The handy "rule of three" rule of thumb (double the number of strands, drop down 3AWG) wgives you 26->23->20->17,

By the actual math, using numbers on of the first AWG table that popped up on a google search:

26 AWG = .129 mm^2.
0.129 mm^2 * 8 strands = 1.03 mm^2.

17AWG = 1.04 mm^2. Close enough.


It would in fact take sixty-four 26AWG strands to make a net 8AWG wire.

Admittedly, for six foot runs 17AWG should be sufficient for any speaker with a reasonable impedance curve. And I can't imagine why anyone would need/want 8AWG fire hoses.
 

mauidan

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Without wading into the wire "sound" debate, that is not correct.

Eight strands of 26AWG wire in fact sum to ~17AWG, not 8AWG.

The handy "rule of three" rule of thumb (double the number of strands, drop down 3AWG) wgives you 26->23->20->17,

By the actual math, using numbers on of the first AWG table that popped up on a google search:

26 AWG = .129 mm^2.
0.129 mm^2 * 8 strands = 1.03 mm^2.

17AWG = 1.04 mm^2. Close enough.


It would in fact take sixty-four 26AWG strands to make a net 8AWG wire.

Admittedly, for six foot runs 17AWG should be sufficient for any speaker with a reasonable impedance curve. And I can't imagine why anyone would need/want 8AWG fire hoses.

These 8awg cables don't look like fire hoses:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/speakercables.htm
 

garylkoh

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Without wading into the wire "sound" debate, that is not correct.

Eight strands of 26AWG wire in fact sum to ~17AWG, not 8AWG.

The handy "rule of three" rule of thumb (double the number of strands, drop down 3AWG) wgives you 26->23->20->17,

By the actual math, using numbers on of the first AWG table that popped up on a google search:

26 AWG = .129 mm^2.
0.129 mm^2 * 8 strands = 1.03 mm^2.

17AWG = 1.04 mm^2. Close enough.


It would in fact take sixty-four 26AWG strands to make a net 8AWG wire.

Admittedly, for six foot runs 17AWG should be sufficient for any speaker with a reasonable impedance curve. And I can't imagine why anyone would need/want 8AWG fire hoses.

DS-21

You're right 8*26awg gives you 17awg. I'm also wrong that Cat5e is 26awg - it's actually 24awg, and 8*24awg gives 15awg. Still, like you said it is sufficient for most loudspeakers. Did you try it though?
 

DS-21

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These 8awg cables don't look like fire hoses:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/speakercables.htm

Scale on a screen can be deceptive. The conductors alone for a true 8AWG wire are something like 3.5mm in diameter. True, the one you linked will be thinner than most 8AWG wires, because teflon insulation is generally thinner than PVC or other types. That's why I prefer speaker wire with teflon jackets, even though teflon is more annoying to strip than PVC. Thinner wires are easier to hide. Wires should not be seen, when at all possible. Even covered in nice Techflex or whatever. Wires are eyesores in a room.

Also, $25 per foot for generic military surplus wire, and extortionary rates to cover it in cheap Techflex or put bananas on it? One can quickly see why those in the audio industry are so dedicated to the "wires are components, too" myth: the markups are simply incredible! Decware's cost on that stuff, going by prices other sellers are currently offering, can't be higher than $1.20 per foot per stereo pair, even if one wants to be extremely generous. But he extracts $25 per foot out of it. Nice work, if you can get it!

Should one for whatever reason be inclined to actually use 8AWG wire to connect an amp to a speaker, one can get 8AWG wire marketed as "speaker cable" from a "high end" audio company for $14.95 for 25 feet.
I've used that wire. Not for speakers, because IMO needing 8AWG speaker wire means your speakers are extraordinarily poor in design or your runs are untenably long. I've used it for short runs between a trunk-mounted battery and a trunk-mounted car amplifier. It's more flexible than the wire typically sold as "power wire" for car-fi.

Now, if the JL Audio wire is missing two magic words ("silver-plated" and "teflon") that makes one thinks it's inferior, one can also get 8AWG wire of the exact same specification and quality Decware is using (surplus mil-spec silver plated copper with teflon insulation) for $0.92/ft, albeit in limited colors.

You're right 8*26awg gives you 17awg. I'm also wrong that Cat5e is 26awg - it's actually 24awg, and 8*24awg gives 15awg. Still, like you said it is sufficient for most loudspeakers. Did you try it though?

Why would I do that? I use wire of perfectly adequate size for my speakers' impedance minima (16AWG). As it happens, a mil-spec silver-plated copper with teflon jacket like the Decware above, which I picked solely because it is the thinnest-jacket and thus thinnest-overall-diameter wire out there for a given gauge, and thinner wires are easy to conceal along baseboards and such.

Your experiment would have me buy network cable (don't have any on hand that's not in use) to replace perfectly good wire with other perfectly good wire that at best sounds no different and is considerably uglier because of the additional bulk.

I merely wanted to point out a gross technical error in the gauge you reported.
 
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mauidan

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Scale on a screen can be deceptive. The conductors alone for a true 8AWG wire are something like 3.5mm in diameter. True, the one you linked will be thinner than most 8AWG wires, because teflon insulation is generally thinner than PVC or other types. That's why I prefer speaker wire with teflon jackets, even though teflon is more annoying to strip than PVC. Thinner wires are easier to hide. Wires should not be seen, when at all possible. Even covered in nice Techflex or whatever. Wires are eyesores in a room.

Also, $25 per foot for generic military surplus wire, and extortionary rates to cover it in cheap Techflex or put bananas on it? One can quickly see why those in the audio industry are so dedicated to the "wires are components, too" myth: the markups are simply incredible! Decware's cost on that stuff, going by prices other sellers are currently offering, can't be higher than $1.20 per foot per stereo pair, even if one wants to be extremely generous. But he extracts $25 per foot out of it. Nice work, if you can get it!

Should one for whatever reason be inclined to actually use 8AWG wire to connect an amp to a speaker, one can get 8AWG wire marketed as "speaker cable" from a "high end" audio company for $14.95 for 25 feet.
I've used that wire. Not for speakers, because IMO needing 8AWG speaker wire means your speakers are extraordinarily poor in design or your runs are untenably long. I've used it for short runs between a trunk-mounted battery and a trunk-mounted car amplifier. It's more flexible than the wire typically sold as "power wire" for car-fi.

Now, if the JL Audio wire is missing two magic words ("silver-plated" and "teflon") that makes one thinks it's inferior, one can also get 8AWG wire of the exact same specification and quality Decware is using (surplus mil-spec silver plated copper with teflon insulation) for $0.92/ft, albeit in limited colors.
.

The diameter of the conductors on the Decware cable are 5.58mm and the OD is 7.22mm. A typical fire hose has an ID of 38-76mm. The scale on the screen isn't deceptive, but your description of 8AWG cable is.

You don't know if the $0.92/ft cable has exactly the same specs as the Decware. No specs are shown on that website.

I don't use the Decware cable (right now I'm using Supra Rondo 4 x 2.5mm), but in the world of high end speaker cables, I'll bet most audiophiles would consider $250. for a 10 foot pair a bargin.
 

DS-21

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The diameter of the conductors on the Decware cable are 5.58mm and the OD is 7.22mm. A typical fire hose has an ID of 38-76mm. The scale on the screen isn't deceptive, but your description of 8AWG cable is.

Your mistake, it seems, is taking rather obviously figurative language literally.

"Fire hose" is a common colloquial expression for speaker wire that is very large in diameter.

The Google search ""fire hose' speaker wire" turns up nearly 60,000 hits, so clearly I am not alone in that rhetorical flourish.

As for comparative size of speaker wires of various gauges, I snapped two (crappy cell-phone) pictures this morning.

The first one shows the relative conductor size of four different wires, three of which are marketed expressly as speaker wire and the last of which is the same mil-spec (M22579/11, silver-plated copper with teflon insulation) as the Decware wire, but 16AWG rather than 8AWG.



The four different wires are, in ascending thickness/descending #:

-16 AWG stranded (mil-spec M22579/11, silver plate OFC copper) with teflon insulation
-14 AWG solid core six-nines with teflon insulation (Esoteric Audio Isopath)
-12 AWG stranded six-nines copper with PVC insulation (Esoteric Audio "Streetwires" car-fi marketed wire, purchased ca. 1994)
-8 AWG stranded six-nines copper (JL Audio XA-BLUSCS-8; I don't know what gauge the individual strands are, but they are visibly finer than the M22759/11 spec's 29AWG individual strands) with PVC insulation

Note that the wire in the original few posts of this thread has about has somewhat more copper in it than the thinnest wire pictures, and somewhat less than the second-thinnest wire. But in terms of physical bulk it is likely bigger than all save perhaps the 8AWG wire, due to all of those extra insulation tubes. So it will be much more annoying to run, without actually providing thicker conductors.

And a comparison of relative jacket size, with the understanding that the Decware will have a thinner overall diameter than the 8AWG wire pictured above because it has thinner insulation.



As you can see, a single one of the JL Audio 8AWG wire's two jackets is very nearly the size of the entire Esoteric Audio Isopath wire with two solid core 14AWG conductors inserted into their own teflon tubes and twisted together, with the resultant twisted-pair then strung through a third PVC tube! What you can't see is how much more flexible the thinnest wire is, compared to the other three. (Though in fairness, the solid core "high end" speaker wire is the least flexible.)

Now, let's take the latest speaker for which measurements exist on Stereophile, the little Thiel floorstander. It has a minimum impedance of about 3?, which is on the low end for typical domestic speakers. Yet even with that speaker. Assuming one's runs are less than roughly eighteen feet, all four of those speaker wires will perform identically. (For runs of ~30' or less, the bigger three wires will be identical in performance.)

Given that they are all identical in performance - and that is a given, to anyone who has not abandoned rationality - if you had runs of 15' to a pair of those Thiel speakers* which wire would you rather try to conceal in a room?

*Though in practice anyone actually serious about music reproduction, as opposed to an "audiophile" who likes to collect expensive audibly irrelevant baubles and show them off to other members of that particular tribe, will likely have asymmetrical run of speaker wire unless the amplifiers are built into the speakers. Why? S/he will accept a room arrangement that puts components between a set of speakers. With a partial exception for dipoles with equipment stuck in the null of their radiation pattern, large, sharp-edged boxes between loudspeakers cause audible diffraction and damage to the sonic image.

You don't know if the $0.92/ft cable has exactly the same specs as the Decware. No specs are shown on that website.

You can't be serious, though in the most technical sense of course you are correct as ApexJr does not offer the same colors as Decware. (I'm sure some idiot somewhere will make an argument that the different colors of teflon sound different. I am going to assume nobody here is quite that stupid.)
However, in terms of technical spec, the ApexJr website clearly lists their wire as "mil-spec," lists the conductors as "silver plated copper," and the insulation as the generic term for teflon.

How many mil-spec 8AWG silver-coated copper with teflon insulation wire specs do you think exist?

Though for another perspective, here is an eBay auction for 50 feet of the same wire with a blue jacket for $75.00.

in the world of high end speaker cables, I'll bet most audiophiles would consider $250. for a 10 foot pair a bargin.

That speaks far more to how large the gulf between "audiophiles" and "reality" is than anything else.
 

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