The Cable Dialectic

DonH50 · Apr 3, 2011

I don't buy the solder argument, unless it is a poor solder connection. I have no proof save my word, but many years ago I helped make up a batch of RCA interconnects using a variety of solders and we (store I worked for) ran a series of DBTs over several weeks inviting friends and customers to try. Nobody could reliably tell which solder was best. I think it more likely the differences heard, and with the same cable in and out, are due to wiping action of the contacts. RCAs are cheap and easy to use, but in terms of providing a reliable, consistent connection they suck (can I say that?) Since most of us do not often change connections, a more positive screw-on connector would be much better. However, it would be more expensive, and of course subject to the nut with the lug wrench who decides if tight is good, tighter must be better, and spins the jacks in the components...

mep · Apr 3, 2011

DonH50 said:
I don't buy the solder argument, unless it is a poor solder connection. I have no proof save my word, but many years ago I helped make up a batch of RCA interconnects using a variety of solders and we (store I worked for) ran a series of DBTs over several weeks inviting friends and customers to try. Nobody could reliably tell which solder was best. I think it more likely the differences heard, and with the same cable in and out, are due to wiping action of the contacts. RCAs are cheap and easy to use, but in terms of providing a reliable, consistent connection they suck (can I say that?) Since most of us do not often change connections, a more positive screw-on connector would be much better. However, it would be more expensive, and of course subject to the nut with the lug wrench who decides if tight is good, tighter must be better, and spins the jacks in the components...

Don-another variable in the equation is the person performing the soldering and their skill level. If you have one highly trained tech performing all of the soldering, the variation with regards to quality should be a moot point. Throw in a couple of people with mixed skill levels, you may have some issues from joint to joint. However, I'm with you on this one. I wouldn't want to try to detect the differences in the *sound* of solder anymore than I would want to be tasked to separate fly s**t from pepper.

fas42 · Apr 3, 2011

garylkoh said:
The better way - tin the RCA, tin the wire. Use de-soldering wick to take off excess solder on both the RCA and the wire. (Note, desoldering wick also has flux so you have to try the various types) Use a "third hand" to hold the wire to touch the terminal. Tin the tip of the soldering iron, and tack solder the wire to the terminal.

I agree. I have not tested the following at all but it also makes sense to me that the "third hand" should apply as much pressure as is reasonable for the situation to clamp the two sides of the joint together while applying the iron, so that there is an absolutely minimum thickness to the solder layer between the metal parts.

Frank

fas42 · Apr 3, 2011

muralman1 said:
No, not in a prime system.

I agree, Vince; I was just wondering how it was specifically for Gary.

Frank

muralman1 · Apr 3, 2011

fas42 said:
I agree, Vince; I was just wondering how it was specifically for Gary.

Frank

I was just saying that because I felt all the talk about solder, and connector tightening was getting silly. All non wire components have lots of solder points. I tighten my lugs to hand tight, not with a gauge wrench, though the way things are being told here, perhaps we should all invest in a gauge wrench.

fas42 · Apr 3, 2011

muralman1 said:
I tighten my lugs to hand tight

Of interest, Vince, have you ever tried contact enhancers at all, such as the silver greases? If you did, what your results?

Frank

garylkoh · Apr 3, 2011

fas42 said:
I agree, Vince; I was just wondering how it was specifically for Gary.

Frank

It is a hardness I hear - different from more detail getting through. Detail can be harsh (as the examples being cited in another thread) but it need not be.

But, I don't think a gauge wrench is needed. I do it thumb tight, and not with a wrench.

muralman1 · Apr 3, 2011

fas42 said:
Of interest, Vince, have you ever tried contact enhancers at all, such as the silver greases? If you did, what your results?

Frank

Yes, with a lot of audiophiles here. I could not hear an appreciable difference. At the time, my system was not sounding near as clean as now.

muralman1 · Apr 3, 2011

garylkoh said:
It is a hardness I hear - different from more detail getting through. Detail can be harsh (as the examples being cited in another thread) but it need not be.

But, I don't think a gauge wrench is needed. I do it thumb tight, and not with a wrench.

It is funny how a great electronics engineer can get his gear so right, without ever hearing it for himself. That is, until I sent him my source duo, the 47 Lab Flatfish + far improved Audio Note DAC. He already had my SCs, and the interconnects I advised him to get. He also has the same speakers. Suffice to say, he is going to have the exact set up as I when he buys the source duo we both marvel at.

fas42 · Apr 4, 2011

garylkoh said:
It is a hardness I hear - different from more detail getting through. Detail can be harsh (as the examples being cited in another thread) but it need not be.

But, I don't think a gauge wrench is needed. I do it thumb tight, and not with a wrench.

The reason I asked the question is that every instinct of mine is saying that the tighter connection should be better, even though at phases of tweaking prior to the last step it may in fact sound worse. Unfortunately a characteristic of my approach is that often the system will in some ways sound worse and worse as you progress, seemingly becoming more harsh, which is most likely why very few people have persevered with it. The harshness may be due to the system in fact becoming more transparent, thereby highlighting more brilliantly the remaining problems.

The payoff with improving transparency is that you can achieve realistic sound if you take it sufficiently far, pulling back and having the gear remain in a state which achieves a more agreeable sound at a particular stage of tuning unfortunately leads to compromised reproduction. This has been my experience, at least.

Frank

RogerD · Apr 4, 2011

The only difference I have ever heard in a cable is it's ability to drop the noise floor. Is it EMI/RFI rejection? Just asking.

garylkoh · Apr 4, 2011

RogerD said:
The only difference I have ever heard in a cable is it's ability to drop the noise floor. Is it EMI/RFI rejection? Just asking.

At a stretch of the imagination is it possible - diodic effect on the solder joint???

RogerD · Apr 4, 2011

Comment deleted,total misunderstanding,both parties.

Thanks Gary!

Steve Williams · Apr 4, 2011

Be nice Roger

garylkoh · Apr 4, 2011

RogerD said:
It is not my imagination, sorry but that pisses me off. Go peddle you BS to someone else.

Sorry, Roger. I was not clear.

At a stretch of MY imagination, I could believe that what I hear with differences in solder joints could be due to a diodic effect on the joint with the different metals, flux, resulting in a rejection or an increase in EMI/RFI effects. However, I don't know for sure that is why I can hear a difference in solder.

mep · Apr 4, 2011

I can’t help but think that Roger seriously misunderstood what Gary said. I’m real sure that Gary wasn’t implying that Roger was only imagining that he heard a lowering of the noise floor with different cables. What Gary said was that if he stretched his imagination, he could think the lowering of the noise floor was due to the diodic effects of the solder joint. I don’t think for one second that Gary was questioning that Roger heard differences in the noise floor between cables.

I have read enough of Gary’s posts to know that Gary doesn’t insult people. Gary is far too kind of a soul for that. Me thinks Roger got his nose out of joint for the wrong reason here and said some unkind things to Gary as a result which I don’t think was deserved.

Steve Williams · Apr 4, 2011

mep said:
I can’t help but think that Roger seriously misunderstood what Gary said. I’m real sure that Gary wasn’t implying that Roger was only imagining that he heard a lowering of the noise floor with different cables. What Gary said was that if he stretched his imagination, he could think the lowering of the noise floor was due to the diodic effects of the solder joint. I don’t think for one second that Gary was questioning that Roger heard differences in the noise floor between cables.

I have read enough of Gary’s posts to know that Gary doesn’t insult people. Gary is far too kind of a soul for that. Me thinks Roger got his nose out of joint for the wrong reason here and said some unkind things to Gary as a result which I don’t think was deserved.

That's why I put my comment in because that was my feelings precisely

fas42 · Apr 4, 2011

RogerD said:
The only difference I have ever heard in a cable is it's ability to drop the noise floor. Is it EMI/RFI rejection? Just asking.

Just getting the conversation back on track to this original question, which I don't believe has been answered, I would say, yes, the way a cable is used does drop the noise floor. Except I wouldn't use the latter term, what people call noise floor is actually the low level distortion I keep muttering about; it may sound like noise in a sense, but the behaviour of the underlying mechanisms are much more closely aligned to distortion. Vince has strong experience along these lines, as have I, as well as many others.

Is the cause EMI/RFI? I am still not sure what is going on exactly, what the "scientific" explanation is; one thing I am sure of, is it that it is definitely not a simple, straightforward phenomenon.

Frank

DonH50 · Apr 4, 2011

Hmmm... Not sure about a "diodic" effect, though dissimilar metals will cause Fermionic and thermionic effects. That should increase susceptibility to RFI if anything, but I suspect that is not the issue. Better shielding from a properly-made (soldered or whatever) ground connection is as likely a reason as any for the difference, at least to me.

There are many potential "low level noise effects" in cables, but most are far below the level at which we could possibly hear them.

garylkoh · Apr 4, 2011

mep said:
I can’t help but think that Roger seriously misunderstood what Gary said. I’m real sure that Gary wasn’t implying that Roger was only imagining that he heard a lowering of the noise floor with different cables. What Gary said was that if he stretched his imagination, he could think the lowering of the noise floor was due to the diodic effects of the solder joint. I don’t think for one second that Gary was questioning that Roger heard differences in the noise floor between cables.

I have read enough of Gary’s posts to know that Gary doesn’t insult people. Gary is far too kind of a soul for that. Me thinks Roger got his nose out of joint for the wrong reason here and said some unkind things to Gary as a result which I don’t think was deserved.

Thanks for the support, Mark.

I re-read my post, and it was a little too curt. I can see how RogerD might have read it as an insult to him, and I have sent him a PM to apologize. I hope that he comes back.

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