Bryston-A Sleeping Giant

joeinid · Mar 16, 2011

Hi Russ,

You are very kind to make the offer of a visit and I may take you up on that. I plan on calling a local dealer to see if they have a new SST squared amp on display/demo I could hear. If I can't find a dealer, we'll talk. I was just going to blindly order an amp and if I like it great, if not, I could always move it. I know what you mean about "to find what I like the best and what is the easiest to live with", I know all tube will be a lot of maintenance. Just for fun, I have a Manley Stingray II coming Friday or Saturday and maybe that will satisfy the tube part of my wants. When I get to hear the new Bryston amps, I'll have a better idea which way to go. I don't need a lot of power, but I want to find Bryston's best/sweetest amp. If that means the 28B, then so be it

Everyone, thank you for all the input.

Joe

Mobiusman said:
Joe,

I use a BAT VK 32 SE all tube preamp with the Bryston and the sound is the best I have ever had. Over the years I have tried many combinations of preamps and power amps to try to find what I like the best and what is the easiest to live with. I am of the position that the best sound is what the listener likes the best and not what measures the best. For me, I always come back to a mixture of tube and solid state and have ultimately settled on tube preamp and solid state amp rather than solid sate preamp and tube amps because I like the authority and control that I get from a ss amp, the life-like quality I get from feeding it with it with a tube preamp and I love not having to deal with output tubes (changing them and their heat). You are more than welcome to drop by my place if you wish to hear the combo.

mep · Mar 16, 2011

KeithR said:
Thanks Mep---did you use NOS tubes?

No, I did not use NOS tubes. I had all sorts of people tell me that you must use NOS Telefunkens with the C2300. My experience with tube preamps is that if you don't like the way they sound with the stock Chinese or Russian tubes they come with, putting in a bunch of expensive NOS tubes isn't going to magically transform the preamp into something you now love. That's nonsense. If you have a tube preamp that you really like with the stock Chinese or Russian tubes, chances are through careful NOS tube selection you can make it sound even better. NOS tubes are not a magical cure all for the sound of a circuit that you don't like. If you can't design and manufacturer a tube preamp that sounds great with currently available tubes, something is dead wrong. ARC isn't shipping any preamps with NOS Telefunkens, Amperex, MUllards, Siemens, etc. One day all of the existing stock of NOS preamp tubes will be gone. Truly NOS tubes are already becoming more scarce. I wish I had a dime for evey tube that I have seen listed as NOS that the seller tells you in the description that it was only used for for a hundred hours or it still measures like NOS-which all means it isn't NOS.

microstrip · Mar 16, 2011

mep said:
(...) My experience with tube preamps is that if you don't like the way they sound with the stock Chinese or Russian tubes they come with, putting in a bunch of expensive NOS tubes isn't going to magically transform the preamp into something you now love. That's nonsense. If you have a tube preamp that you really like with the stock Chinese or Russian tubes, chances are through careful NOS tube selection you can make it sound even better. NOS tubes are not a magical cure all for the sound of a circuit that you don't like. (...)

Most of the time the difference you notice when changing tubes is just due to the difference in the transconsductance and the change of tube current when you swap it - similar to the difference when you change an old worn-out tube for a fresh replacement. The allowed variation in tube parameters for the same tube is very large - it is why one of the reasons many times you have to use matched or specially selected tubes.

mep · Mar 16, 2011

microstrip said:
The allowed variation in tube parameters for the same tube is very large-snip.

And probably one of the reasons why tubes of the same types from different vendors sounded different. Not to mention tubes in the same family that can be subsituted. For example take a 6922 tube. You can use a 7308, E188CC, and CCA to name just a few variants in place of the 6922. Lots of fun and possibilities here.

The real secret is to buy tubes that are graded for noise and microphonics. The lower the level of signal the tube is amplifying, the more important tube noise is. I can only use the highest grade tubes for my SA-2 pre-preamp because you are amplifying a voltage that is so low that it's actually insane that you are trying to do it with tubes in the first place. Even a .5mv cartridge which is considered a "high output" cartridge by some people is really a very low voltage for tubes to amplify. Think about it. .5mv = .0005v.

joeinid · Mar 16, 2011

Hi,

I am very happy with the current Gold Lion or Psvane tubes. I only bought some NOS Mullards to experiment with and see how they sound. All the current tubes in my mind are fine. A pair of tubes is under $100 and in my situation will last 1-2 years. I don't plan on using the phono stage and if I eventually do buy a turntable, I'd get a serious phoho stage anyway. It may not be the best preamp but it does satisfy me for now. Maybe if my Ayre KX-R had a few more bells and whistles, I would have kept it. Going into setup and making some changes was a pain. It's also fun to experiment. The journey is half the fun

Joe

Steve Williams · Mar 16, 2011

mep said:
And probably one of the reasons why tubes of the same types from different vendors sounded different. Not to mention tubes in the same family that can be subsituted. For example take a 6922 tube. You can use a 7308, E188CC, and CCA to name just a few variants in place of the 6922. Lots of fun and possibilities here.

The real secret is to buy tubes that are graded for noise and microphonics. The lower the level of signal the tube is amplifying, the more important tube noise is. I can only use the highest grade tubes for my SA-2 pre-preamp because you are amplifying a voltage that is so low that it's actually insane that you are trying to do it with tubes in the first place. Even a .5mv cartridge which is considered a "high output" cartridge by some people is really a very low voltage for tubes to amplify. Think about it. .5mv = .0005v.

Mark

I gotta tell you that I always enjoy reading your tube and analog suggestions as for me I have been there and done that.

BTW, we use the same guy to buy our tubes.

Don't desert your love for tubes Mark. Wasn't it you who called the digital side "the Dark Side"

mep · Mar 16, 2011

Steve-I'm not deserting tubes by any means. I'm still caring for and feeding a Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp (8 tubes), Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp(8 tubes), and a pair of Ampex 350 repros which each have 9 tubes. Without the Jadis Defy 7 MKII in my system, that's 34 tubes. Throw in the Jadis with its 18 tubes, and now you are up to 52 tubes. Even without the Jadis, 34 tubes is quite a few tubes. Bottom line is that I still love tubes and have the gear to prove it.

Steve Williams · Mar 16, 2011

you have both the gear as well as the battle scars to prove it

microstrip · Mar 16, 2011

mep said:
(...) Throw in the Jadis with its 18 tubes, and now you are up to 52 tubes. Even without the Jadis, 34 tubes is quite a few tubes. Bottom line is that I still love tubes and have the gear to prove it.

54 tubes (20 x 6h30 , 28x6650C , 2x 12at7 and 4 x 6350). I was a happy man until I read the WTB thread on PartsConnexion 6h30's) ...

Steve Williams · Mar 16, 2011

mep said:
Steve-I'm not deserting tubes by any means. I'm still caring for and feeding a Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp (8 tubes), Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp(8 tubes), and a pair of Ampex 350 repros which each have 9 tubes. Without the Jadis Defy 7 MKII in my system, that's 34 tubes. Throw in the Jadis with its 18 tubes, and now you are up to 52 tubes. Even without the Jadis, 34 tubes is quite a few tubes. Bottom line is that I still love tubes and have the gear to prove it.

Mark

when I owned the ARC Ref 600 Mk lll's with the ARC Ref 2 Mk ll that was 70 tubes. You needed a bathing suit to go into the room. Listening in the summer was unthinkable until I went SET route and installed a dedicated Central HVAC for that room only

mep · Mar 16, 2011

Steve-Wow, that was a crazy amount of tubes. Your life must be easier now as far as keeping your gear running instead of your wallet.

DonH50 · Mar 16, 2011

I glitched -- how'd we get from Bryston to tubes?

OK, I'll play... I loved my old tube gear, and now I love my new SS gear, but wish I had one of the Brystons that rotated through my system back in the 1980's, or one of the new ones now.

How's that?

joeinid · Mar 16, 2011

DonH50 said:
I glitched -- how'd we get from Bryston to tubes?

OK, I'll play... I loved my old tube gear, and now I love my new SS gear, but wish I had one of the Brystons that rotated through my system back in the 1980's, or one of the new ones now.

How's that?

Pretty good Don

It's tough staying on topic but I learn so much from everyone's comments so thank you in advance. I'm dying to hear the new Bryston gear so I can make up my mind.

Joe

Mobiusman · Mar 17, 2011

Joe,

Here's my take on sound versus price and power from Bryston, based both on listening and talking to James Tanner from Bryston on numerous occasions. All of the Bryston's sound similar because of similar topology, but the true division point occurs with the 4B, although some say the 3B. When one goes to the 7B and the increase in power, essentially a bridged 4b with one massive transformer and one driver board, Bryston has found out that there is some increased benefit from using more of their Torus technology in the power supply portion because according to Tanner, the amplification level starts to reveal line anomalies that are not particularly apparent in most installations with a 4B. They feel that the situations where the a Torus would benefit a 4B the owner should buy one, rather than raising the price of a 4B for everyone.

Clearly the 28 is the crown jewel of the line and the most likely to reveal power line anomalies due to its amplification levels. Consequently, the 28 has the greatest amount of Torus components and circuitry of the line, which is apparent from a quick look inside at the nothing short of mammoth transformer and caps. While there are few negatives to more power compared to less in properly designed amps, other than noise floor issues, I doubt there is little need to buy a 28 unless you need the power, say for Maggie 3.7's Probably 7B's are more than sufficient as monoblocks and the 4B great where a stereo amp will do.

I know that I am repeating myself on this thread, but there is a huge difference between the early SST2 series and the latest versions, so be sure to buy a current product model. Another thing that I love about these amps and frequently do not find in other amps is that when you turn up the volume, there is no qualitative difference or shift, just more volume.

joeinid · Mar 17, 2011

Hi Russ,

Thank you for the detailed response. I DON'T need the power and the 7B's are more than enough. From all reports, the new squared amps are outstanding. I'd like to hear a pair locally if I can, if not I'll look you up.

microstrip · Mar 17, 2011

Mobiusman said:
(...) Bryston has found out that there is some increased benefit from using more of their Torus technology in the power supply portion because according to Tanner, the amplification level starts to reveal line anomalies that are not particularly apparent in most installations with a 4B. They feel that the situations where the a Torus would benefit a 4B the owner should buy one, rather than raising the price of a 4B for everyone.

I have recently looking to the Torus/Bryston isolation transformers. I was not aware that Bryston was using these transformers in their amplifiers. Do you know which models use it? Is any preamplifier or DAC also using it?

fas42 · Mar 17, 2011

Mobiusman said:
When one goes to the 7B and the increase in power, essentially a bridged 4b with one massive transformer and one driver board, Bryston has found out that there is some increased benefit from using more of their Torus technology in the power supply portion because according to Tanner, the amplification level starts to reveal line anomalies that are not particularly apparent in most installations with a 4B. They feel that the situations where the a Torus would benefit a 4B the owner should buy one, rather than raising the price of a 4B for everyone.

Clearly the 28 is the crown jewel of the line and the most likely to reveal power line anomalies due to its amplification levels. Consequently, the 28 has the greatest amount of Torus components and circuitry of the line, which is apparent from a quick look inside at the nothing short of mammoth transformer and caps.
...

Another thing that I love about these amps and frequently do not find in other amps is that when you turn up the volume, there is no qualitative difference or shift, just more volume.

It's always good to see when the blinkers fall off the eyes of manufacturers, when they realise that the power supply is probably the key component in an amplifier, and the more effort they put into that the better the component will sound. I would always take an amp with a lousy amplifying circuit and good quality power supply setup, then the other way around ...

Frank

mep · Mar 17, 2011

DonH50 said:
I glitched -- how'd we get from Bryston to tubes?

OK, I'll play... I loved my old tube gear, and now I love my new SS gear, but wish I had one of the Brystons that rotated through my system back in the 1980's, or one of the new ones now.

How's that?

Don-I feel bad because we did kind of hijack this thread. Sometimes threads take on a life of their own which is usually ok with me as long as everyone else is enjoying the interplay.

joeinid · Mar 17, 2011

Hi,

Not to bring this thread back to tubes, but I hope you guys have seen this "review from the trenches" on the Bryston site. This, along with the other reviews really got me going on the amps. I can't wait to hear them.

http://www.bryston.com/pdfs/david_28b.pdf

DonH50 · Mar 17, 2011

mep said:
Don-I feel bad because we did kind of hijack this thread. Sometimes threads take on a life of their own which is usually ok with me as long as everyone else is enjoying the interplay.

Hey, we agree again!

A guy on another forum with whom I have been exchanging messages just got a used Bryston 4B. I'll have to ask him what he thinks. He's going to be driving a new pair of Magnepan 3.7's, my kind of guy!

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