I think I have found my soul mate: Jim Austin's of Stereophile

amirm

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Just picked up the latest issue of Stereophile article. It has a nice column by Jim Austin on page 3. I can't find the transcript online. Here is an intro:http://www.stereophile.com/content/now-newsstands-istereophilei-vol34-no3

Too lazy to type it all in manually :). Net, net, he takes a very nice balanced view of how both sides of the audio arguments are right to some extent that no other position other than accepting both the science/measurement and listening tests.

Here is his concluding paragraph (wish John Atkinson would get us the full transcript :) ):

"Luckily for us, the human population is diverse.... A science-based activity without scientific constraints, in which the only distinction among tweaks that appear to be nothing more than snake-oil, well designed amplifiers, and speakers with good dispersion characteristics are the vicissitudes of personal aural experience, makes me uncomfortable. I find myself craving some certainty, if only to put a little more space between the creations of a skilled audio designer and, say, a jar of pretty rocks."

Earlier he eloquently explains how there is enough fuzziness in science and measurement of audio that for anyone to essentially write anything they like and have it still be probable. You really have to read the article to see the mastery with which he summarizes the never ending arguments we have and why this world continues to operate the way it does.

Nicely done!
 

Gregadd

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Is that soul mate or doppelganger? LOL
 

microstrip

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Amir,

I have read the article some days ago, and although I agree on most of the views of the author I do not like the first sentence "For a field based in science, high-end has a relationship with its parent discipline that is regrettably complex".

IMHO, high-end has not been based in science until now now - if you see a very successful piece of high-end equipment that you know was designed by scientific methods, please nominate it (*)- and there is still a long way until it can be considered a science. In my view, high-end wants to cross the bridge between the electrical signals and the perceptual sensations created by real music. Although there is some very valid work done in these fields, it is still incipient - if you are interested in something different from our usual discussions see "A Fast Review of Spatial Hearing" by James D. Johnston at http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt/jj/spatial_hearing.ppt

If JA could allow us to have the full article, it would be an excellent article for debate in WTBF - having just the first and last sentence is misleading to other members.

(*) I already referred the Quad ESL 63 several times - no prizes for this one!
 

amirm

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IMHO, high-end has not been based in science until now now - if you see a very successful piece of high-end equipment that you know was designed by scientific methods, please nominate it (*)
I nominate two: anything from Harman group such as Mark Levinson/Revel and Merdian. I know both companies heavily use science to design products.

That said, I agree that a lot of high-end is designed with perhaps far less science. :)
 

Gregadd

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Design or evaluationn of the results?
 

microstrip

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I nominate two: anything from Harman group such as Mark Levinson/Revel and Merdian. I know both companies heavily use science to design products.

That said, I agree that a lot of high-end is designed with perhaps far less science. :)

Perfect, we have more nominates. :) Now, before debating the oscars we need the evidence - is there a scientific model beyond these products? The use of science in the design is not enough per si to warrant the scientific classification. Consider this example - when Peter Walker presented his ESL63 he published a paper with the mathematical model behind his point like speaker, and how his vector model of the currents was modeling the forces in the Mylar sheet of this particular speaker.
 

Bruce B

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I'd just like to see a post by Amir that DOESN'T mention "Harman group such as Mark Levinson/Revel". We certainly know what he sells!!:rolleyes:
 

Gregadd

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I'd just like to see a post by Amir that DOESN'T mention "Harman group such as Mark Levinson/Revel". We certainly know what he sells!!:rolleyes:

Very funny Bruce. He rarely talks about how they sound. Like I come to work and can't get my work done. Maybe that's why he has a store and I don't. Maybe he'll hire me. I'm still waiting for him to announce a ine of cables. Does Harmon make those?
 

Scott Borduin

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I'd just like to see a post by Amir that DOESN'T mention "Harman group such as Mark Levinson/Revel". We certainly know what he sells!!:rolleyes:

All teasing aside, if you're going to make a list of audio manufacturers who have long invested in research and science as a cornerstone of the business, it would almost be unfair not to mention Harman. Don Keele, Floyd Toole, Kevin Voecks, Sean Olive, and a lot of investment in facilities - there's quite a pedigree there.

Bob Stuart of Meridian is one of the most interesting figures in high-end audio over the last 30 years, IMO. He's degreed in both audio engineering and psychoacoustics, and he's not afraid to use either his ears or his engineering background to challenge conventional wisdom. There is an audio recording of an interview/presentation he did to the UK AES which touches on a whole bunch of topics: the link to the recording is at the bottom of this page. It's over an hour, but well worth the listen if you're at all into the science of audio and auditory perception.

As an aside, his way of listening - isolating and exaggerating artifacts as a way of training oneself to hear them - is very similar to the approach Amir describes in identifying digital artifacts.
 

rbbert

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Others here are probably already aware of this, but John Curl has taken Jim Austin's editorial as a personal affront

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=critics&m=54189

I personally saw nothing very controversial in the editorial on first reading, and my opinion hasn't changed much since then.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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JackD201

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Curl is a designer and has worked for quite a few big audio companies. He is credited for the design of some early Mark Levinson pieces and more recently Parasound to name just two.
 

amirm

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What a strange rant. The fact that the editorial takes shots at the reviewers in the same magazine should raise the status of it, not lower it as Curl is saying.
 

rbbert

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Stereoeditor

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If JA could allow us to have the full article, it would be an excellent article for debate in WTBF - having just the first and last sentence is misleading to other members.

This article will be posted at www.stereophile.com toward the end of next week.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
 

Bruce B

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Curl has sometimes been proclaimed the premier phono pre-amp designer of our time, in addition to Jack's comments.

I had the Vendetta Research and I'm sorry now I got rid of it....:(
 

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